An ebay category / ethical question

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

*Just to clarify, since I received a rather hostile message... I've never done this. I was just curious about the ethics of sending back an untested broken camera that is KNOWINGLY listed in the wrong eBay section to gain an advantage*

Iknow that many old cameras are sold in the vintage section of ebay, and with that you "get what you get and you don't throw a fit". I also see that there are plenty of cameras sold in the regular photography section that theoretically should be covered by ebay guarantee that it is as listed (working / condition). But then I see many listers in that section are stating "not tested" "not sure if it works" etc. Has anyone taken advantage of this to buy a camera, test it and send it back if it doesn't work? Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded? Also I really have a feeling some unethical sellers list cameras as "untested" because they know they are broken. Has anyone run into this issue, and if it went to the ebay arbitrator do they have protections for selling something "not tested" in a section for fully functioning cameras?

BrianShaw · Apr 2, 2017

My rule of thumb is that I don't buy if I have any reservations or can't stand the loss. Short of outright fraud I find buying on eBay as caveat emptor situation.

The question of the ethics of what you propose should be answered by you, and you alone.

But since you ask I'll answer for myself - I don't buy from anyone I think may be misleading or unethical. I would not feel so entitled unless there was provable outright fraud involved.

Les Sarile · Apr 2, 2017

Personally, if it is not listed as fully working condition I consider it as not working. I prefer local CL listings as at least I can exercise it to some extent. But of course anything unserviced can fail anytime thereafter. If I want something working with money back warranty then I buy from known reliable outlets.

Alan Gales · Apr 2, 2017

BrianShaw said:
My rule of thumb is that I don't buy if I have any reservations or can't stand the loss. Short of outright fraud I find buying on eBay as caveat emptor situation.

The question of the ethics of what you propose should be answered by you, and you alone.

But since you ask I'll answer for myself - I don't buy from anyone I think may be misleading or unethical. I would not feel so entitled unless there was provable outright fraud involved.

I completely agree with Brian!

A lot of those cameras listed as untested are sold by Sellers who inherited the camera or picked it up cheap at an estate sale and have no idea how to load film or shoot the camera. They are just being honest. I wouldn't feel right taking advantage of them. Of course like Brian says the question of ethics can only be answered by you.

klownshed · Apr 2, 2017

I've bought a few cameras sold as "spares or repair" that worked perfectly upon arrival too.

You can generally sniff out the less scrupulous sellers by their history.

But I'd never spend more than a certain amount on eBay and generally the more desirable the camera, the less likely I would be to purchase one on eBay.

I've had enough bargains to offset the couple of duds I've had.

Steve Bellayr · Apr 2, 2017

Rule of thumb: Untested=Not working. Another rule of thumb: Any vintage camera purchased will need repairs. Budget for them. Of my last eight purchases all eight needed some sort or repair. $125+ per repair. Luckily, for me 7 of the 8 were very inexpensive. Another rule of thumb that I discovered: If the body is in great shape it probably has been in storage for many, many years and will need a CLA. Almost every camera I pick up needs light seals.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

Steve Bellayr said:
Rule of thumb: Untested=Not working. Another rule of thumb: Any vintage camera purchased will need repairs. Budget for them. Of my last eight purchases all eight needed some sort or repair. $125+ per repair. Luckily, for me 7 of the 8 were very inexpensive. Another rule of thumb that I discovered: If the body is in great shape it probably has been in storage for many, many years and will need a CLA. Almost every camera I pick up needs light seals.

Les Sarile said:
Personally, if it is not listed as fully working condition I consider it as not working. I prefer local CL listings as at least I can exercise it to some extent. But of course anything unserviced can fail anytime thereafter. If I want something working with money back warranty then I buy from known reliable outlets.

I know, but my budget is hydrox not oreos. Am I really doing much damage sending a non working camera back and telling them to list it in the proper section as non- working parts or vintage. They get the camera back and I get my money back. Also with seals, at what condition should light seals expected to be good or bad. I picked up a camera listed ex+++ (it turned out to be an exaggeration) but the seals were bad. I asked for a discount to replace seals.

fstop · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
I know that many old cameras are sold in the vintage section of ebay, and with that you "get what you get and you don't throw a fit". I also see that there are plenty of cameras sold in the regular photography section that theoretically should be covered by ebay guarantee that it is as listed (working / condition). But then I see many listers in that section are stating "not tested" "not sure if it works" etc. Has anyone taken advantage of this to buy a camera, test it and send it back if it doesn't work? Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded? Also I really have a feeling some unethical sellers list cameras as "untested" because they know they are broken. Has anyone run into this issue, and if it went to the ebay arbitrator do they have protections for selling something "not tested" in a section for fully functioning cameras?

Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded?
No its called fraud.
What you propose is as bad as you are saying sellers are.
First there is no rule on ebay that selling in the regular section a body needs to be in working condition.If the seller says untested then the risk is on your side, if you buy an untested camera and you test it and find faults that does not mean you can return it.
Sellers are getting burned because knobs are returning perfectly functional cameras and complaining. Many times they damage the cameras themselves costing the seller money, other times they remove parts they want and send back a body missing pieces or ruin shutters purposely etc.

Whats your ebay name?

klownshed · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
I know, but my budget is hydrox not oreos. Am I really doing much damage sending a non working camera back and telling them to list it in the proper section as non- working parts or vintage. They get the camera back and I get my money back. Also with seals, at what condition should light seals expected to be good or bad. I picked up a camera listed ex+++ (it turned out to be an exaggeration) but the seals were bad. I asked for a discount to replace seals.

If they say it's untested, I see no reasonable reason to send it back. As for categories, that makes no difference in my view whatsoever. Regardless of the category posted in, "untested" = "probably broken" or at best caveat emptor.

Sending it back when you knew it might be broken anyway is definitely the wrong side of ethical in my book. After all, you're gambling on getting a bargain. Sometimes the house wins. ;-)

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

As a buyer, I would never do that. If an item is listed honestly "as is" or "untested" or "unknown condition" then I weigh the risk and buy or not.

As a seller, that would cost money out of my pocket and I can't afford that. Please don't hurt me financially like that.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

fstop said:
Seller can't object since they didn't post it as vintage. Is that underhanded?
No its called fraud.
What you propose is as bad as you are saying sellers are.
First there is no rule on ebay that selling in the regular section a body needs to be in working condition.If the seller says untested then the risk is on your side, if you buy an untested camera and you test it and find faults that does not mean you can return it.
Sellers are getting burned because knobs are returning perfectly functional cameras and complaining. Many times they damage the cameras themselves costing the seller money, other times they remove parts they want and send back a body missing pieces or ruin shutters purposely etc.

Whats your ebay name?

I'll add a bit to the above post. It's quite easy to make a mistake when listing an item, especially if listing many dozens of them or if one is new to eBay. But if the description and photos are accurate and honest, that's all that really matters. People can do as they see appropriate but I will always try to do the right thing and if I err I always correct my mistakes. The flip-side is I sometimes fight when it's obvious I'm being taken advantage of.

Sirius Glass · Apr 2, 2017

My rule of thumb is that I don't buy if it does not come from KEH, a trusted store, APUG or Large Format Photography Forum. I am willing to pay a little more for peace of mind and not having to fight uphill battles.

rpavich · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
I know, but my budget is hydrox not oreos. Am I really doing much damage sending a non working camera back and telling them to list it in the proper section as non- working parts or vintage. They get the camera back and I get my money back. Also with seals, at what condition should light seals expected to be good or bad. I picked up a camera listed ex+++ (it turned out to be an exaggeration) but the seals were bad. I asked for a discount to replace seals.

If you got a camera that was "untested" then that's what you got...a grab bag chance camera. Who cares what section it's in?
Lots of things are listed in the wrong section.

rpavich · Apr 2, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
My rule of thumb is that I don't buy if it does not come from KEH, a trusted store, APUG or Large Format Photography Forum. I am willing to pay a little more for peace of mind and not having to fight uphill battles.

I tend towards this school of thought. Especially if the item is big-ticket. I don't like hassles.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
I know, but my budget is hydrox not oreos. Am I really doing much damage sending a non working camera back and telling them to list it in the proper section as non- working parts or vintage. They get the camera back and I get my money back. Also with seals, at what condition should light seals expected to be good or bad. I picked up a camera listed ex+++ (it turned out to be an exaggeration) but the seals were bad. I asked for a discount to replace seals.

One's limited budget is not another's problem. Returning an item hurts the other person from their lost funds and lost time... which just might be in less abundance than yours... you don't know. Also, returns affect a seller's eBay account such that they can lose their discounts which, over a period of months, can cost them hundreds of dollars... eBay calls these seller/listing "defects". Most people/buyers don't know that... so they think "Gosh, I want a really great deal so what harm can it do?" It can cause a lot of harm. We're all responsible for our own actions. "The Butterfly Effect".

Mistakes: I've listed items in the completely wrong category because it's easy to forget making a change or by clicking the wrong check box. But the titles, descriptions and photos are always spot-on and honest. Are people going to take advantage of an innocent error? Yeah... some people will. Are you really that person?

If something is listed as "exc+++" without further explanation... that they're 'not experts' on the subject, then yes, they failed to reveal all the 'facts'. However, if they stated "appears to be exc+++" but also stated they know little or nothing about the item... that's a fine line. Still... if they state clearly that they know nothing about the item then they were/are 'fair enough'.

As fstop asked: What's your eBay moniker?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot... I can't afford the luxury of packaged cookies.

removed account4 · Apr 2, 2017

that is why you ask quetions before you buy, and read a seller's feedback rating.
there are plenty of sellers with good feedback as sellers + buyers who sell untested things
if it is untested you can email them and explain how to test it so they know, maybe they don't know
and it it really did come from their friend's friend's grandmother's attic who knows ...
its not fraud unless they knowingly deceive
im not sure what the word "vintage" has to do with anything, is that some sort of code for antique / does not work ?
the things i tend to go by is that sellers love to make things sound/seem better than they are .
look at the photos and if it doesn't seem true it might not be ...
ALSO cameras, lenses and shutters will always need a CLA when they are purchased ..

i know of 2 seller of large format lenses on ebay who have had their lenses on ebay for a long long long time,
and both knowingly decieve potential buyers ...
the only thing one can do is report the fraudsters to ebay if you KNOW they are coming fraud so ebay can weed them out.

shutterfinger · Apr 2, 2017

Many people drop their stuff off at a listing service. The listing service people rarely know anything about the stuff they are listing beyond the factory label.
I choose the section that will give me the most views or be the most accessible by users. Then there is the mutiple catagory listing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-Prontor-shutter-/272610625524?hash=item3f78dc07f4:g:RFoAAOSwuLZY3C5Q

Bill Burk · Apr 2, 2017

I wouldn't expose myself to unscrupulous sellers by buying something from one. Just seems too harmful to myself.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

rpavich said:
If you got a camera that was "untested" then that's what you got...a grab bag chance camera

jnanian said:
that is why you ask quetions before you buy, and read a seller's feedback rating.
there are plenty of sellers with good feedback as sellers + buyers who sell untested things
if it is untested you can email them and explain how to test it so they know, maybe they don't know
and it it really did come from their friend's friend's grandmother's attic who knows ...
its not fraud unless they knowingly deceive
im not sure what the word "vintage" has to do with anything, is that some sort of code for antique / does not work ?
the things i tend to go by is that sellers love to make things sound/seem better than they are .
look at the photos and if it doesn't seem true it might not be ...
ALSO cameras, lenses and shutters will always need a CLA when they are purchased ..

i know of 2 seller of large format lenses on ebay who have had their lenses on ebay for a long long long time,
and both knowingly decieve potential buyers ...
the only thing one can do is report the fraudsters to ebay if you KNOW they are coming fraud so ebay can weed them out.

I'm not near my computer, but I think the antique (or is it vintage) doesn't have buyer protections that something will work. Maybe their risk is having something returned that they put in an a better section to get more views / more money instead of marking it as a parts camera because they do not know it works.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 2, 2017

Something else I forgot...

If a buyer returns an item and the seller already used the funds to buy food or pay their electric bill, eBay will first try to get the funds from the seller's PayPal account. But if the seller used their PayPal funds to survive then eBay will try to get the funds from the sellers bank account. If the funds aren't available, the seller's bank charges an over draft fee of $25-39. Then they try again in a few days so there's yet another overdraft fee of $25-39.

Buying an honestly described item for $50 and returning it just because it was in the wrong category... could cost the buyer shipping fees of $10-30 plus two overdraft fees... and that's the immediate damage (not including time). Then, if the buyer is the one who causes the seller to lose his discounts... hundreds more.

Why? Because one person wants a fantastic deal. If the buyer can live with the guilt then so-be-it. "The Butterfly Effect".

Les Sarile · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
I know, but my budget is hydrox not oreos.

I don't know what age cameras you are interested in but the vintage types are potentially 30+ years old and even one in good cosmetic shape is subject to failure within first use and I am talking about the best ever made. And buying another cheap one is no guarantee it is as good or better.

I don't consider these folks unethical but just users who sincerely may not know any better.

BTW, what specific camera are you looking for?

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

jnanian said:
that is why you ask quetions before you buy, and read a seller's feedback rating.
there are plenty of sellers with good feedback as sellers + buyers who sell untested things
if it is untested you can email them and explain how to test it so they know, maybe they don't know
and it it really did come from their friend's friend's grandmother's attic who knows ...
its not fraud unless they knowingly deceive
im not sure what the word "vintage" has to do with anything, is that some sort of code for antique / does not work ?
the things i tend to go by is that sellers love to make things sound/seem better than they are .
look at the photos and if it doesn't seem true it might not be ...
ALSO cameras, lenses and shutters will always need a CLA when they are purchased ..

i know of 2 seller of large format lenses on ebay who have had their lenses on ebay for a long long long time,
and both knowingly decieve potential buyers ...
the only thing one can do is report the fraudsters to ebay if you KNOW they are coming fraud so ebay can weed them out.

I do that, I've actually seen cameras removed from auction simply for asking to try it with a battery actually in it.

Luckless · Apr 2, 2017

To me it would depend on how they've worded the ad and what they've implied.

If it is listed as being in poor cosmetic condition, but not specifically flagged as having functionality issues, and it shows up with all parts but in need of a clean, then I'm not really going to bat an eye at breaking it down to clean and put back together. - It is what it was described as, and I got what I paid for.

If it shows up and parts are completely missing, or the equipment is to the point of being non-functional in a way that a simple cleaning and lubrication job doesn't correct it, then I'm not going to be impressed.

- If it was listed with specific issues, and it shows up with only those specific issues, then I got what I paid for.
- If there are issues beyond that, then that might be what the insurance on the shipping is for, assuming it isn't something that is completely missing that wasn't stated as such in the original listing.

If someone is hit with hard times because they tried to scam me by suggesting that I was buying something better than what they had to sell, then I'm not going to lose any sleep over getting my money back and returning the item in the same condition it arrived in. I am very much all for helping others succeed in life, but I am not responsible for their poor decisions.

BrianShaw · Apr 2, 2017

kingbuzzie said:
I'm not near my computer, but I think the antique (or is it vintage) doesn't have buyer protections that something will work. Maybe their risk is having something returned that they put in an a better section to get more views / more money instead of marking it as a parts camera because they do not know it works.

If I'm not mistaken, the buyer protection is for nondelivery or not as described. "Untested" is exactly that - a nonstatement about functionality. What isn't said is just as important to consider as what is said. Just like when buying a used car.

I think what is being expressed in this thread is that you can't make assumptions of functionality based on what category an item is listed if that functionality is not specifically stated. But the extension is that with older equipment it may need an overhaul to be working as it once did even if the ad specifically states that it is in working condition.

Old cameras are basically a rich person's sport!

Sorry you are getting hostile messages.

kingbuzzie · Apr 2, 2017

But eBay doesn't have an untested section. It's either working or parts. If something is knowing listed in the working section to gain a few more shekels, is that as described no matter what they write below? Again I've never taken advantage of this.

An ebay category / ethical question

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency