An alternative to Negative Lab Pro and Lr has to exist (C-41 reversal and orange mask removal)?!

Helge · Apr 9, 2019

How do the DSLR scanners here reverse their colour negatives?
I don’t want to pay extortion prices for Light Room, for features I’ll never use and certainly not for the necessary Negative Lab Pro on top of that.

Fiddling with reversed curves in PS or other image editors, is not a long term viable option and doesn’t get you results that compares well to a wet optical print.

There has to be a simple piece of software that does the relatively simple job of reversing the orange mask and with profiles for common negative films.
Only I can’t seem to get a clear answer when I ask google.

I used to use Vuescan with the incredibly clunky import option, but I’m really tired of that as you have to work too much for every frame.

Advice would be much appreciated.

Les Sarile · Apr 9, 2019

Helge said:
How do the DSLR scanners here reverse their colour negatives?

There are many of these (digicam copy of color negative) on youtube that take you through each of their processes and they all confirm what I already know from my own efforts and that they are not universally applicable to each frame of color negative film. And of course on top of that you still have to deal with dust and scratch removal.

Fortunately I have been using a Coolscan 5000/9000 with Nikonscan and over 40,000 frames of various films later, I have not found anything close to this combination when it comes to accurately rendering color negatives - as well as all other film types. I am hoping that Nikon has instilled into their D850's built-in color negative conversion the same accuracy as Coolscan+Nikonscan combination but I have not yet tried it myself to compare it. But of course this will still not have the unequaled ICE built-into the Coolscan+Nikonscan combination.

NortheastPhotographic · Apr 9, 2019

Lol are you kidding me?

NLP was 'JUST' released within the last few months. It makes better conversions than Epson Software, Nikon, Vuescan, even the high end stuff from Imacon/Hasselblad. It is a complex piece of software that Nathan continues to work hard on improving. Now you already want an alternative that is apparently free? Actually when it WAS released, Nathan didn't even support raw files from the CCD line scanners, but he added that feature for no extra cost. Pretty rad.

Re: the price of LR... Adobe reduced the price of PS & LR to $10/mo. It would take 7.5 YEARS of paying monthly to match the price of the standalone versions of that software, and in that time Adobe would have released 2-3 new versions, and back then previous versions of ACR did not support new cameras. Plus you get pretty decent add-ons like Premier Rush and Portfolio. As a company they not only completely ended piracy, which was a HUGE problem for them, and vastly grew the pool of creatives who could afford their software. There is a lot to complain about when it comes to Adobe, I do often (no real dust and scratch removal tool!!!!). However, the subscription model is not one of them, it's probably the smartest thing they've ever done.

Les Sarile · Apr 9, 2019

NortheastPhotographic said:
NLP was 'JUST' released within the last few months. It makes better conversions than Epson Software, Nikon, Vuescan, even the high end stuff from Imacon/Hasselblad. It is a complex piece of software that Nathan continues to work hard on improving. Now you already want an alternative that is apparently free? Actually when it WAS released, Nathan didn't even support raw files from the CCD line scanners, but he added that feature for no extra cost. Pretty rad.

How can I find out about NLP and how it makes better conversions then those you listed?

NortheastPhotographic · Apr 9, 2019

Les Sarile said:
How can I find out about NLP and how it makes better conversions then those you listed?

https://www.negativelabpro.com/

The color science is based on lab scanners such as the Fuji Frontier, or Noritsu. However the input file can be far higher quality as it will accept both DSLR and Vuescan raws. It's not 1 click easy, you do need to tweak the files to get the best results, but it's better than anything I've used thus far. Only an actual Frontier is easier, but the NLP files can be much better.

Lachlan Young · Apr 9, 2019

Helge said:
How do the DSLR scanners here reverse their colour negatives?
I don’t want to pay extortion prices for Light Room, for features I’ll never use and certainly not for the necessary Negative Lab Pro on top of that.

Fiddling with reversed curves in PS or other image editors, is not a long term viable option and doesn’t get you results that compares well to a wet optical print.

There has to be a simple piece of software that does the relatively simple job of reversing the orange mask and with profiles for common negative films.
Only I can’t seem to get a clear answer when I ask google.

I used to use Vuescan with the incredibly clunky import option, but I’m really tired of the that as you have to work too much for every frame.

Advice would be much appreciated.

The key step is pretty simple to do in Photoshop: sample the colour of the un-inverted negative rebate, make a new layer, fill the layer with the sampled colour, set blend mode to divide, flatten the layers, invert the image, clip RGB black & white points using warnings. Then fine colour adjustments & tonal balancing. The divide blending mode is essential - the mask is not a global colour - it's a mask that's formed inversely proportional to exposure & must be removed as such. If you do so, you're well on your way to manually matching how an optical print responds.

Helge · Apr 9, 2019

NortheastPhotographic said:
Lol are you kidding me?

NLP was 'JUST' released within the last few months. It makes better conversions than Epson Software, Nikon, Vuescan, even the high end stuff from Imacon/Hasselblad. It is a complex piece of software that Nathan continues to work hard on improving. Now you already want an alternative that is apparently free? Actually when it WAS released, Nathan didn't even support raw files from the CCD line scanners, but he added that feature for no extra cost. Pretty rad.

Re: the price of LR... Adobe reduced the price of PS & LR to $10/mo. It would take 7.5 YEARS of paying monthly to match the price of the standalone versions of that software, and in that time Adobe would have released 2-3 new versions, and back then previous versions of ACR did not support new cameras. Plus you get pretty decent add-ons like Premier Rush and Portfolio. As a company they not only completely ended piracy, which was a HUGE problem for them, and vastly grew the pool of creatives who could afford their software. There is a lot to complain about when it comes to Adobe, I do often (no real dust and scratch removal tool!!!!). However, the subscription model is not one of them, it's probably the smartest thing they've ever done.

Wherever did I say I wanted it all for free?

Ten dollars a month might not seem a lot initially, but it’s as anyone will tell you with even the slightest experience of such schemes, it’s just an excuse for Adobe to get their trunk down your wallet for a steady trickle and hoping you forget about it, and purchase some of their other offers without thinking about it too, now that your payment details are down and easy.

It all adds up. It would just be another subsscription on top of the many others I already have.

I already paid for Vuescan as implied, so I’m obviously not averse to paying for a good product.

I have no use for the rest of the package, I “just” need the conversion done in badges once in a while.

I am aware that it's not a simple reverse and adjust and that the orange mask needs special attention, but still.
Let's not make mountains out of molehills, or make a whole industry out of a single step.
Significantly more complex and well made software have been written and is being supported for significantly more complex tasks for less money or for free.
Kodak’s own Mobile Film Scanner app for one, does a good job at this. Unfortunately only on phones and tablets with images from those devices cameras.

It’s boils down to:
I just can’t believe NLP would be the only real option.

Photo Engineer · Apr 9, 2019

I get perfect negative scans from my Epson scanner with no correction. Lovely machine.

PE

Helge · Apr 9, 2019

Epson is fine for webuse. But for 135 it just doesn’t give me enough resolution.

Photo Engineer · Apr 9, 2019

I get very high resolution with my Epson. Just set it in the popup window and scan. I've blown up some to very high magnification and they look great. Problem is that they use up a lot of disk space and cannot be uploaded easily. I do make some 13x19 prints with my Canon printer. I usually use a Nikon 35mm camera and Portra film, scan and print the results. I have a box of prints.

Getting late here. It must be later in Denmark by about 5 - 6 hours.

Night.

PE

Helge · Apr 9, 2019

Night. Yeah, I have to get up unusually early today.

I have a hard time getting over five or six MP for an Epson V750 scan, probably mostly due to the compromised optics.
While a deep dive with a macro lens or even a microscope into a frame of Portra or Ektar tells me there is plenty more to be extracted.

MattKing · Apr 9, 2019

Convince the developer to come out with a version compatible with either of the appropriate Corel products - Aftershot Pro or Paintshop Pro.
A decent number of the Photoshop plugins have also been ported for use with those two products.

Eric Hiss · Apr 10, 2019

Thank you for that information - very helpful. I have been using ColorNeg software as a photoshop plug-in but just tried this and it's quite remarkable how good I got a 'scan' in just a minute or so.

Lachlan Young said:
The key step is pretty simple to do in Photoshop: sample the colour of the un-inverted negative rebate, make a new layer, fill the layer with the sampled colour, set blend mode to divide, flatten the layers, invert the image, clip RGB black & white points using warnings. Then fine colour adjustments & tonal balancing. The divide blending mode is essential - the mask is not a global colour - it's a mask that's formed inversely proportional to exposure & must be removed as such. If you do so, you're well on your way to manually matching how an optical print responds.

MattKing · Apr 10, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
The key step is pretty simple to do in Photoshop: sample the colour of the un-inverted negative rebate, make a new layer, fill the layer with the sampled colour, set blend mode to divide, flatten the layers, invert the image, clip RGB black & white points using warnings. Then fine colour adjustments & tonal balancing. The divide blending mode is essential - the mask is not a global colour - it's a mask that's formed inversely proportional to exposure & must be removed as such. If you do so, you're well on your way to manually matching how an optical print responds.

For those of us who use Corel's Paintshop Pro, it appears the "difference" layer blending mode in Paintshop Pro is equivalent to the "divide" blending mode in Photoshop.

Lachlan Young · Apr 10, 2019

Eric Hiss said:
Thank you for that information - very helpful. I have been using ColorNeg software as a photoshop plug-in but just tried this and it's quite remarkable how good I got a 'scan' in just a minute or so.

It takes considerably more time to describe than do! Main area of trouble people tend to have is judging how far to clip the individual black/ white points in each of the RGB channels in curves. Best solution I've found is to clip the black point till the rebate has a good black, and the white until just before it starts to clip in the image area. Other important thing is that black points must be set first. Far too often, the preset driven programmes are excessively aggressive with bp/ wp settings when compared to manual controls. In comparison, the Fuji Frontier (for example) tends to clip 'white' to outright white, then adjust the output back to an L of 95 amongst a whole series of other oddities that rather stifle the range of many films. It makes sense in the context of that sort of minilab, but if you want something more akin to what an optical print might deliver, I've found manual clipping to be significantly better.

Helge · Apr 10, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
The key step is pretty simple to do in Photoshop: sample the colour of the un-inverted negative rebate, make a new layer, fill the layer with the sampled colour, set blend mode to divide, flatten the layers, invert the image, clip RGB black & white points using warnings. Then fine colour adjustments & tonal balancing. The divide blending mode is essential - the mask is not a global colour - it's a mask that's formed inversely proportional to exposure & must be removed as such. If you do so, you're well on your way to manually matching how an optical print responds.

Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

Do you know what you actually get with NLP?
I just watched Matt Days video on it and camera scanning again.
There seems to be much the same work in it as you described above.
Is it really just a hundred dollar orange mask remover?

Tom Kershaw · Apr 10, 2019

The other option to look at is the ColorPerfect software: https://www.colorperfect.com/

StepheKoontz · Apr 10, 2019

Helge said:
Night. Yeah, I have to get up unusually early today.

I have a hard time getting over five or six MP for an Epson V750 scan, probably mostly due to the compromised optics.
While a deep dive with a macro lens or even a microscope into a frame of Portra or Ektar tells me there is plenty more to be extracted.

What size prints are you trying to make from 35mm negs???

NortheastPhotographic · Apr 10, 2019

Helge said:
Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

Do you know what you actually get with NLP?
I just watched Matt Days video on it and camera scanning again.
There seems to be much the same work in it as you described above.
Is it really just a hundred dollar orange mask remover?

Your ignorance is outstanding and ongoing...

Helge · Apr 10, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
What size prints are you trying to make from 35mm negs???

Any size.
To be more specific I find that 35mm holds op fine up to very large sizes, as long as you can’t see the pixels of the scan. Something you can combat with oversampling or just scanning at really high resolutions.
High res scans also avoids grain aliasing which the Epson scanners are especially bad with.
Grain is not objectionable and with fine grain film it’s not even noticeable at normal viewing distances at poster size.

Helge · Apr 10, 2019

NortheastPhotographic said:
Your ignorance is outstanding and ongoing...

Instead of insulting me explain. I’m asking here to learn not to be put down.
I’m telling you what I see and give my immediate impression. If it’s wrong tell me why.
I’d think it’s obvious I’m not here to insult or harm anyones product. I just personally don’t want to deal with Lightroom or pay to pay to pay.

With your tone and choice of words, I’m considering maybe you’re economically vested in NLP?

NexusCleaner · Apr 10, 2019

Well, software that's largely automated to do a task like this is time consuming to create, perfect, and update, so there's a reason all the options are expensive.

That being said, if you really want a free alternative, and want to do the entire community a solid, the best option is to write your own open source software to do this.

Helge · Apr 10, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
What size prints are you trying to make from 35mm negs???

NexusCleaner said:
Well, software that's largely automated to do a task like this is time consuming to create, perfect, and update, so there's a reason all the options are expensive.

That being said, if you really want a free alternative, and want to do the entire community a solid, the best option is to write your own open source software to do this.

But is it really automatic? As in you can fire a batch of images through and expect a decent result to come out, with tweaking being optional.
From the demonstrations of NLP I’ve seen it doesn’t appear that way.

If it really is significantly better and faster than just doing the orange mask subtract myself and reversing and tweaking in PS then I might be convinced.

NortheastPhotographic · Apr 10, 2019

Helge said:
Instead of insulting me explain. I’m asking here to learn not to be put down.
I’m telling you what I see and give my immediate impression. If it’s wrong tell me why.
I’d think it’s obvious I’m not here to insult or harm anyones product. I just personally don’t want to deal with Lightroom or pay to pay to pay.

With your tone and choice of words, I’m considering maybe you’re economically vested in NLP?

Well Adobe still sells the standalone LR6, why not just buy that? It will take you 1 year of LR/PS payments to equal the cost of LR6, and you won't get PS, or AFAIK the suite of other freebies, but you can feel safe in the knowledge that you own a license for a static piece of software with limited support and no future. That's why I so covet my copy of Photoshop CS2...it's just the gift that keeps on giving!

Re NLP, there is a ton of info on the actual NLP site, and a demo... But since color conversions are as simple as removing an orange mask I recommend you develop your own software. I'm sure it will be great!

Helge · Apr 10, 2019

Ok. I had not seen the demo video. There is a batch mode then. But so is there in a lot of other image programs.
Still, it would be nice with a standalone program like Vuescan. Perhaps that is something he should look into?

An alternative to Negative Lab Pro and Lr has to exist (C-41 reversal and orange mask removal)?!

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Les Sarile

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An alternative to Negative Lab Pro and Lr has to exist (C-41 reversal and orange mask removal)?!

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