Ammonium Thiosulfate - alternate sources?

Does anybody know alternate sources for photo grade ammonium thiosulfate other than the usual photographic bulk chemical suppliers? How easy (safe) is it to mix on your own from individual ingredients? I've been getting it in the 60% solution for mixing TF-3 fixer. Thanks...

Murray

I've been buying 60% ammonium thiosufate from Artcraft Chemicals :
http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/

and JD photochemicals (Canada)

Dead Link Removed

MurrayMinchin said:

Does anybody know alternate sources for photo grade ammonium thiosulfate other than the usual photographic bulk chemical suppliers? How easy (safe) is it to mix on your own from individual ingredients? I've been getting it in the 60% solution for mixing TF-3 fixer. Thanks...

Murray

Click to expand...

I get mine in 30# buckets from The Chemistry Store. I buy Sodium Metabisulfite in 3# jars from them as well. Michael Smith's plain fixer (specified on the Azo Forum) works wonderfully for fixing Azo prints and is the easiest thing to mix among all the formulae I ever mix. I don't know about anything else.

This might be helpful. Rapid fixers need not be based on ammonium thiosulfate. It really doesn't matter from where the ammonium ion comes. For example,

Agfa 304 Rapid Fixing Bath

Water (50°C) ........................... 600 ml
Sodium thiosulfate (pent) .............. 200 g
Ammonium chloride ...................... 50.0 g
Potassium metabisulfite ................ 20.0 g
Water to make .......................... 1.0 l

Sodium thiosulfate is quite reasonable from The Chemistry Store.

Thanks Thom, but;

Art Craft......1 gal = $14.00 US (It's in the States, I'm in Canada)

Photochem...1 litre = $5.50...1 gal = $20.90 US

Photochem is in Quebec and I'm in BC, so shipping costs almost double the price again

Murray

c6h6o3 said:

I get mine in 30# buckets from The Chemistry Store. I buy Sodium Metabisulfite in 3# jars from them as well. Michael Smith's plain fixer (specified on the Azo Forum) works wonderfully for fixing Azo prints and is the easiest thing to mix among all the formulae I ever mix. I don't know about anything else.

Click to expand...

Disregard that post. I think I need to drink a case of wine. I was referring to sodium thiosulfate.

c6h6o3 said:

Disregard that post. I think I need to drink a case of wine. I was referring to sodium thiosulfate.

Click to expand...

Well...it's a tad early in the day, but I am on holidays! I'm partial to white wine please

Murray

Gerald Koch said:

This might be helpful. Rapid fixers need not be based on ammonium thiosulfate. It really doesn't matter from where the ammonium ion comes. For example,

Agfa 304 Rapid Fixing Bath

Water (50°C) ........................... 600 ml
Sodium thiosulfate (pent) .............. 200 g
Ammonium chloride ...................... 50.0 g
Potassium metabisulfite ................ 20.0 g
Water to make .......................... 1.0 l

Sodium thiosulfate is quite reasonable from The Chemistry Store.

Click to expand...

Guys,

Please be aware that potassium ion is a poison for the fixation of photographic materials and seriously slows down the rate of both fixation and washing. You should substitute an equal molar amount of Sodium metabisulfite for best results. (See Mees for data).

Ammonium chloride fixes are known, but are about twice as slow as the pure ammonium hypo fixes. The fact that they are faster than the sodium hypo fixes rather obscures this intermediate activity of the ammonium chloride and the outright slowdown from the potassium ion. So, the fix above will look fairly good when compared to a pure Sodium hypo fix with the potassium salt. And, you can't easily see the wash rate unless you run a test.

Obsolete technology in the face of TF-3 and TF-4. See my Super Fix posted here among the formulas for an example of a modern superadditive rapid fixer.

I get my ammonium hypo from the Formulary at $16.95 / gal.

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=9&CategoryID=19&langID=0

Prices vary, but it probably all comes from one major source. IDK.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Ammonium chloride fixes are known, but are about twice as slow as the pure ammonium hypo fixes.

Click to expand...

No problem for me. As the film is fixing and washing I am cleaning up or doing something else.

I find my OF-1 (se Recipes) mix to be just about as "rapid" as any other rapid fixer. It's based on a similar recipe to the Agfa 304, but: Get rid of potassium, get rid of bisulfite unless you want an acid fixer. Then put in plain sulfite for "life extension" and a slight pH increase, add sodium metaborate or sodium bicarbonate to increase pH even more (if needed).

Most of the time I use just sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite, and ammonium chloride.

I may be wrong, but I get the impression that Murray is looking to cut costs. If so, using sodium thiosulfate isn't a good solution -- at least, not unless you can find a source that's much cheaper than those I've found. Based on my cost data (mail order sources including Photographer's Formulary, Art Craft, and The Chemistry Store), a typical sodium thiosulfate fixer costs about $2.00 to $2.50 per liter, most of that in the sodium thiosulfate. The Agfa 304 formula mentioned earlier is $3.04/liter. Ammonium thiosulfate fixers cost about half that. For instance, TF-3 is $0.90/liter, once it's diluted for use.

Of course, all of this is based on the assumptions in my costs spreadsheet, such as the quantities being purchased and shipping costs. The most important of these costs are $5.10/liter for 60% ammonium thiosulfate from Art Craft and $13.40/kg for sodium thiosulfate from The Chemistry Store. Both prices include shipping. This analysis also assumes similar capacities from the two types of fixers.

srs5694 said:

$13.40/kg for sodium thiosulfate from The Chemistry Store.

Click to expand...

Just checked with TCS and for 20# the price per pound without shipping is $1.47 or $3.25 per kilogram. If you are going to be making your own fixer you're not going to be buying hypo in 2# lots and paying $13.40/kilogram.

Gerald Koch said:

Just checked with TCS and for 20# the price per pound without shipping is $1.47 or $3.25 per kilogram. If you are going to be making your own fixer you're not going to be buying hypo in 2# lots and paying $13.40/kilogram.

Click to expand...

That's partly true; however, I read the anhydrous cost from my spreadsheet, but you quoted the crystalline cost, and that shrinks the difference. (I should have quoted the crystalline cost, since that's what TCS ships; I just wasn't paying enough attention.) At least as important, your figures omit shipping, which is a huge cost with sodium thiosulfate when bought by mail/Internet. Using the 20-pound bucket price from TCS and guesstimating shipping at $20 (based on a quick check at UPS and my experience with TCS), that lowers the cost of, say, Agfa 304 from $3.04/liter to $2.51/liter. Ole's OF-1 goes from $2.03/liter to $1.35/liter. These prices are still higher than the $0.90/liter for working-strength TF-3. As the point I was trying to make is that using sodium thiosulfate instead of ammonium thiosulfate won't save you money, that point is still correct. This might well change if you can find a good and cheap local supply of sodium thiosulfate, though. I've heard that swimming pool supply houses may carry it, but I've not yet looked into that myself. Of course, if a good and cheap local supply of ammonium thiosulfate also exists, that could keep such formulas cheaper. That just comes back to Murray's main question: Is there a good and inexpensive supplier for ammonium thiosulfate? The best I know of is Art Craft, but I've not tried to find a local supplier. If someplace local has it, that might well be cheaper, since ammonium thiosulfate (like sodium thiosulfate) is expensive to ship.

srs5694 said:

I've heard that swimming pool supply houses may carry it, but I've not yet looked into that myself.

Click to expand...

I've heard the same thing. Here in Florida we have lots of pool supply stores but I haven't found one that carries sodium thiosulfate. Wish I could.

http://www.vistek.ca/details/details.aspx?WebCode=119898

Dead Link Removed

How about using that instead?

You should be able to find it locally to save on shipping.

Gerald Koch said:

I've heard the same thing. Here in Florida we have lots of pool supply stores but I haven't found one that carries sodium thiosulfate. Wish I could.

Click to expand...

IIRC it's used for large commerical pools to lower clorine levels. I'm guessing indoor pools are less common in Florida then the colder parts of North America.

Nick Zentena said:

You should be able to find it locally to save on shipping.

Click to expand...

There's nothing photographic (except mat board and frames) I can find locally...the closest stores that sell 4x5 film or have any chance of carrying a varied supply of fixers and developers are in Calgary and Vancouver, which are both a 1000 mile drive down the highway.

It's getting close to when I'll need to order more ammonium thiosulfate and was wondering if the APUG brain-trust knew of any sneaky sources other than the obvious ones.

Murray

P.S. Thom; I couldn't find your fix in the "Chemistry Recipes" section...is it somewhere else?

No mini-labs? Nothing? The stuff I linked to from Vistek is just C-41 fixer. Also check the price. Less then $8 Canadian for 5litres.

Nick Zentena said:

No mini-labs? Nothing? The stuff I linked to from Vistek is just C-41 fixer. Also check the price. Less then $8 Canadian for 5litres.

Click to expand...

I should let you know I'm not using any products by The Great Yellow Father anymore

Good point about the mini-lab. Maybe they use the Agfa (alkaline rapid) fix I've heard about...and maybe it is equivilant in properties to TF-3...

Murray

Gerald Koch said:

This might be helpful. Rapid fixers need not
be based on ammonium thiosulfate. It really
doesn't matter from where the ammonium
ion comes. For example,

Agfa 304 Rapid Fixing Bath

Water (50°C) ........................... 600 ml
Sodium thiosulfate (pent) .............. 200 g
Ammonium chloride ...................... 50.0 g
Potassium metabisulfite ................ 20.0 g
Water to make .......................... 1.0 l

Click to expand...

A not as Rapid Fix as straight A. Thio. Sodium ions
will not complex at all with silver and just get in the
way and slow the process down. Dan

MurrayMinchin said:

Good point about the mini-lab. Maybe they use the Agfa (alkaline rapid) fix I've heard about...and maybe it is equivilant in properties to TF-3...

Murray

Click to expand...

I saw a jug at Henry's last week. But I don't know if Agfa is making anymore or what. You might want to check out Fuji's products. The C-41 stuff gets cheaper the bigger the jug to.

Nick Zentena said:

But I don't know if Agfa is making anymore or what. You might want to check out Fuji's products. The C-41 stuff gets cheaper the bigger the jug to.

Click to expand...

Agfa FX Universal...that's what it was. I investigated it last year, and 5 litres was about $18.00 Can and shipping was estimated at somewhere over $30.00 from a place in Victoria.

Living in paradise (actually, on the edge of it) has it's price

Murray

Nick Zentena said:

http://www.vistek.ca/details/details.aspx?WebCode=119898

Dead Link Removed

How about using that instead?

You should be able to find it locally to save on shipping.

Click to expand...

Good idea, but can one use it on b/w film????

Check the MSDS. It's not that different from TF-3.

AMMONIUM SULFITE instead of sodium sulfite.

It uses SODIUM BISULFITE and AMMONIUM ACETATE I guess to adjust the pH.

It's going to be a little acidic while TF-3 is akaline.