Ammonium Ferric Oxalate and Ammonium Iron (III) Oxalate

[Andrew O'Neill]

Have been making traditional Cyanotypes for a few years. Would like to try Mike Ware's formula as it's keeping qualities seem much better than the traditional. Are these two chemicals the same?

 

[fgorga]

Yes... they are the same compound.

Ferric = Iron (III)
Ferrous = Iron (II)

Ferric/Ferrous is old nomenclature.

Iron (II)/Iron (III) is the modern way of referring to the oxidation states of iron.

 

[Barry Kirsten]

Have been making traditional Cyanotypes for a few years. Would like to try Mike Ware's formula as it's keeping qualities seem much better than the traditional. Are these two chemicals the same?

I think it's a safe bet. Mike Ware's publication lists:

"Ammonium iron(III) oxalate (NH4)3[Fe(C2O4)3].3H2O aka ferric ammonium oxalate".

I've been using this chemistry without any problems. My current batch I mixed last December and there's not a hint of deterioration.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks everyone!

 

[AgX]

Have been making traditional Cyanotypes for a few years. Would like to try Mike Ware's formula as it's keeping qualities seem much better than the traditional. Are these two chemicals the same?

Mike Ware meanwhile has several formulas, the one from 1995 that contained Chromium IV called "New Cyanotype" and the most recent with a more benign chemical, called "Simple Cyanotype"

 

[koraks]

that contained Chromium IV

Chromium VI in fact; hexavalent chromium. Note that it can simply be left out of the original 'New Cyanotype' formula; it will require negatives with a longer tonal scale, but the chrome-free chemistry will print just fine as it is.

I wonder if I'll ever find a suitable use for the remaining stock of ammonium iron (III) oxalate I once acquired for this. I made dozens of New Cyanotypes at one point, but have since moved on to other ventures. Yes, I read the fairly recent monograph by Moersch on a spin on kallitype ('lobotype' - reminiscent of lobotomy...!?) using ammonium iron (III) oxalate. Funny thing; when I got my AIO stock a couple of years ago, one of the things I tried was create a silver print with it, which kind of worked, but I abandoned it because the sensitizer was wayward to work with (as noted, the silver essentially precipitates out immediately). I guess I should have published my experiment and create somewhat of a hubbub around it?

 

[AgX]

Chromium VI in fact; hexavalent chromium. Note that it can simply be left out of the original 'New Cyanotype' formula; it will require negatives with a longer tonal scale, but the chrome-free chemistry will print just fine as it is.

A typing error.
Thank you for the update on the effect of the Dichromate resp. the effect at leaving it out. But as Mike Ware back then considered all ingredients as rather benign or so he had little reason to discuss such.

 

[koraks]

Did he, really? I'm surprised at that. I would have expected him to have been aware of the dangers associated with chromium VI compounds, which were amply and widely known by the time he published his formula.

 

[AgX]

Well, I just reread it and he worded it this way: "Please note that all the chemicals are poisonous - tho' not dangerously so!"

 

[koraks]

Well, at least he himself had reached a respectable age despite using them. Anyway, I would have to disagree on the "not dangerously so" bit. But that's kind of obvious.

 

[Mike Ware]

Gentlemen,
I refer you to my Cyanomicon p. 248.
Since you are evidently incapable of looking something up in a book I will post it here:

Ammonium dichromate

(NH4)2Cr2O7
RMM = 252.07
CAS 7789-09-5
Aldrich #22,481-2; Alfa #13444

Hazard Rating

Health 4 extreme (cancer causing)
Flammability 1 slight (involatile, but solid is combustible)
Reactivity 3 severe (oxidizer)
Contact 3 severe (corrosive)

Harmful if dust is inhaled, contact may cause burns or external ulcers.
Strong oxidizer, contact with other materials may cause fire.
Do not get in eyes, on skin, on clothing. Wash thoroughly after handling.
Unfortunately, this substance has a hazard rating of 4 on the health scale, because it is a known human carcinogen: external contact can cause ulcers and dermatitis. In spite of this hazard, ammonium dichromate (or the corresponding potassium or sodium salts) has long been used on a large commercial scale in the printing industry, and for tanning of leather, occasionally giving rise to documented cases of occupational illness. It is also employed in large amounts for the Gum Bichromate and Carbon printing processes. The very small quantity used in the sensitizers described above does not represent a serious risk if the chemical is handled sensibly and proper precautions taken, but if the hazard is still considered unacceptable, its use may be avoided altogether as indicated above in the preparative section.

 

[MattKing]

Mr. Ware,
Thankyou for your (somewhat grumpy) post.
I'm sure that the participants here appreciate greatly your directing them to the correct reference in your publication - which I would guess they are familiar with.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Gee a bit harsh, Mr. Ware...but thanks, all the same.

 

[koraks]

It's great to see you're still reading, posting and actively (and also assertively when needed) participating in threads on here. I hope you stick around for a long time to come.

 

[AgX]

Mr. Ware,
Thankyou for your (somewhat grumpy) post.
I'm sure that the participants here appreciate greatly your directing them to the correct reference in your publication - which I would guess they are familiar with.

Well, I was not familar with this book.
And does looking something up at Mike's own article posted at his own website mean using a incorrect reference...?

 

[shaunphoto]

Hello,

I am new here, so I guess I signed up because I want something!

I'd like to try Mr Ware's New Cyanotype process. Out of interest, and for its shelf life, cyanotype isn't my main interest.
However, here in the UK, I am struggling to buy any of the ferric iii ammonium oxalate.

All the places I used to know (Silverprint, - the guy in Wakefield?...) seem to have disappeared. Process Supplies don't keep much anymore!!

Any help?

thanks,


Shaun

 

[koraks]

Welcome aboard Shaun. Can't comment on UK sources specifically, but I bought mine from a generic chemistry retailer I located through Google. You could check ebay too, since there are quite a few small-scale sellers parting out larger batches of chemistry for darkroom printers like you and me.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Shaun, call Mike Jacobson at Artcraft Chemicals in New York. Mike sells to European buyers. If you call, he will give you a much more affordable shipping quote — his online e-commerce portal adds much higher shipping rates compared to what he charges on the phone. Here’s the link to his site:

Contact

Artcraftchemicals

artcraftchemicals.com

He’s a one-man business but he supplies photo chemicals to the giants. And he has the lowest silver nitrate prices in the quadrant.

 

[argent_negre]

Disactis, in France, sells it. They offer a wide range of photography raw ad prepared chemicals.

Pau

 

[nmp]

Hello,

I am new here, so I guess I signed up because I want something!

I'd like to try Mr Ware's New Cyanotype process. Out of interest, and for its shelf life, cyanotype isn't my main interest.
However, here in the UK, I am struggling to buy any of the ferric iii ammonium oxalate.

All the places I used to know (Silverprint, - the guy in Wakefield?...) seem to have disappeared. Process Supplies don't keep much anymore!!

Any help?

thanks,


Shaun

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but the long shelf life is primarily because of the addition of potassium dichromate which you will not be able to procure (assuming Wales has followed EU ban.) So unless you already have some at hand, you would be better off making A & B separate and add them before making the print - same as the classic formula.

As per supplier, I thought there was one in Italy that I forget the name of that seemed to have everything alternative processing.

:Niranjan.

 

[koraks]

@nmp without dichromate the New Cyanotype sensitizer keeps better than mixed classic, but not as well as the separate solutions for Classic. When I used the New variant, I used to make a small amount, like 50ml, and use it up before it went bad. I never added dichromate after an initial test that made clear to me that the best results were had by using the straight sensitizer and a sufficiently long-scaled negative.

 

[shaunphoto]

Thank you for all the helpful replies, sadly;

As the UK is no longer in the EU I cannot get chemicals from the Italian supplier mentioned above (they will not ship to UK), - my schoolboy French translates the same from Disactis' site, thanks Pau.

Just the phone call alone to New York would put up the price to unreasonable for 100g or so, let alone shipping from the US versus a UK supplier. Probably a fine choice if I was getting some Silver Nitrate! I'll bear him in mind if I try something more adventurous. thanks rolleiflexible.

I did acquire some potassium dichromate, a while back, but that's another story! cheers Niranjan.

I have used the Classic cyanotype formula most of my photography life, and have also used (to my mind) the far superior Mike Ware 'Simple Cyanotype' too, and wanted to see what more I could get from the process, which seems to be by using the chemistry I can't easily get!!

I was hoping a UK-er would pop-up with a straightforward solution -(pun intended - and I'll bet you're all groaning now!)

thanks koraks too, I've never e-bayed from outside UK I'll see what's available...


Shaun

 

[nmp]

I have used the Classic cyanotype formula most of my photography life, and have also used (to my mind) the far superior Mike Ware 'Simple Cyanotype' too, and wanted to see what more I could get from the process, which seems to be by using the chemistry I can't easily get!!

If you made the Simple sensitizer, you should be able to make your own FAO too, in theory - swaping out citric acid with oxalic acid and recalculating the weights accordingly. I have to think about this a bit more if there is a bottle neck to do so. Right now I can't think of any. It won't be the exact same thing as dissolving a solid FAO since there will be extra nitric acid in the mix. I am not sure if its presence would do anything in the follow-up reaction with potassium fericyanide. No idea what that would do to the performance in comparison to preparing the sensitizer the standard way. Good questions to ask and answer if you are chemically daring type....

:Niranjan.

 

[awty]

Hello,

I am new here, so I guess I signed up because I want something!

I'd like to try Mr Ware's New Cyanotype process. Out of interest, and for its shelf life, cyanotype isn't my main interest.
However, here in the UK, I am struggling to buy any of the ferric iii ammonium oxalate.

All the places I used to know (Silverprint, - the guy in Wakefield?...) seem to have disappeared. Process Supplies don't keep much anymore!!

Any help?

thanks,


Shaun

Celtic Chemicals Ltd

Product specifications of Ammonium Ferric Oxalate 3H2O. Celtic Chemicals are suppliers of Ammonium Ferric Oxalate 3H2O and other Iron chemical products.

www.celticchemicals.co.uk

Ammonium iron(III) oxalate trihydrate, 98%, pure, Thermo Scientific Chemicals | Fisher Scientific

www.fishersci.co.uk

 

[shaunphoto]

Thanks for your thoughts Niranjan, but I'm a photographer first, and a chemist about ninth or tenth. I can follow straightforward chemical recipes for several photographic processes, but cannot create, nor understand chemical workarounds involving substituting, re-calculating etc.. Extra Nitric Acid sounds worrying!!

To Paul - again thanks, great for taking the time to post these links, but these are industrial suppliers and will not supply unless you have business accounts with them, which includes professional chemical storage facilities, minimum orders etc. One of them is only 5 miles down the road from me!! but they still won't!