Alternatives to Azo/Amidol

sanking

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Michael,

First, I thought these discussions were about aesthetic issues as well as materials.

Some of the most beautiful prints I have ever seen , in the flesh, were Peter Henry Emerson's low key (flat) prints of the Norfolk Broad. I doubt the DMax of these prints was log 1.2, if that. Gum bichromate prints by the French pictorialsit Demanchy are also low in Dmax, but they also rank high on my all-time list of most beautiful photographs.

The preference for maximum Dmax is an acquired tast, IMO. We are not born with it. I have no specific objection to it, unless it becomes the major preocupation. In fact, in my own work in carbon I work for high Dmax and maximum relief. It is a very distinctive and beautiful look, but not necessarily the only valid one. In fact, no look is necessarily better than anotther IMO. Our artistic preferences are acquired from education and experience, not encoded into our genetic make-up.

Let's not forget that it is now possible to make carbon pigment prints from some inkjet printers and papers up to a reflective density of 2.4 and higher, well beyond the Dmax of any silver papers, or for that matter, photographic prints by any process. If you hang your hat on max Dmax someone will eventually one-up you, whatever your process.


Sandy
 
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Harrigan

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While silver chloride papers are very nice and produce beautiful glowing prints I have seen MAS prints next to albumen prints done by a master and I have to say I prefer the albumen. Not to take anything away from MAS' print which was very beautiful, I simply prefer the pleasing warm tone of albumen to the more neutral tone azo prints.

There does however appear to be a modern attitude that if you are doing contact silver prints they must be processed in pyro and printed to azo using amidol or they are inferior. I simply do not agree and personally prefer warm tone prints but I also feel strongly that every image deserves its own treatment. While silver chloride prints are awesome there are other prints using other developers on other paper that are very nice as well.
 
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...Our artistic preferences are acquired from education and experience, not encoded into our genetic make-up...
Whether discussing artistic preferences or any other aspect of human behavior/personality, I'm not sure one can ascribe causation to any particular point along the nature-nurture spectrum.
 

Scott Peters

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If we all liked the same things it would ge pretty boring. But Kodak might still be making azo if we all liked azo !

Intersting story, I had a fellow photog over to view prints - he had to have one that I thought was rather 'dark' and somewhat 'flat' - but he likes those kinds of images...the other photog I had over disliked the same print because he thought it was 'muddy'...

I happen to think its kind of flat/muddy, but it is supposed to be kind of a dark/flat mood...but I am glad the fellow photog loves it and wants it!
 

Photo Engineer

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I have curves for 3 Kodak papers, drawn to the same scale and compared to Azo. Looking at them, Azo appears to have the shortest tone scale and lowest Dmax of all of the papers represented and published on Kodak's web site.

The Dmax of the Azo paper is about 1.8 compared to about 2.0 - 2.2 for the rest which is in-line with my experience.

These were all exposed with about 1 - 10 second exposures and tested in the developer or activator that Kodak chose for the release test. In most cases it is Dektol.

So, the preference for Azo is somehow in the development, in handling or in exposure which reveals its unique qualities. In other words, it is the art involved. But then it is only good art in the hands of an expert, it is only art or good but not both in the hands of the common photographer.

But then, isn't that what we have all been saying.

And, the bottom line is also what is implicit here. We can achieve similarly good results with other products if one is a good artist. Whatever product works best for a good artist will move the viewer.

One of my bosses used to say "we sell photogrphs, not sensitometric curves". The curves I have only serve to show that Azo does not stand out when compared to other papers. This same could be said about Pt/Pd, or any other medium of imaging.

PE
 

Ole

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One paper which hasn't been mentioned yet is the Bergger Contact paper.

It's not a silver chloride paper though - it's probably got a bit of iodide in it too. But it's slow, and extremely flexible in developing: You can make it do just about anything by changin the processing. It's also possible to enlarge on it, but the exposure times easily get very long. It's three to four stops slower than "ordinary" enlarging papers.
 

CRhymer

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Bergger Art Contact 2


Hello Ole,

I have noticed that you have mentioned this a couple of times on other threads, so I thought I would give it a try. I have some on the way - not a common item in North America. In addition to the information on Bergger's site, could you give a bit of info (or links) about processing it - or your personal recommendations.

I use the Forte or re-branded equivalents for most Bergger product's (price), but have never found one for Art Contact 2.

Cheers,
Clarence
 

Ole

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I've used it most with Ansco 130, since that's what I've used the most. Different developers and different developing will give different results; it's very responsive to changes!

It also tones very well. I put a scrap print in a blue toner that had "stopped working". It hadn't - the print turned the most brilliantly intense blue I've ever seen on a BW paper within a second! Since then I've been very careful with it around toners...

Oh yes - you can lith print on it too, if you can live with the extremely long exposure times. If your "normal" lith exposure is one minute, expect about ten to fifteen with the Art Contact.
 

CRhymer

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Art Contact shelf life

Hi Ole,

Just one more thing. Do you know if it has a long shelf life - any incorporated developers? I ordered quite a bit.

Cheers,
Clarence
 

Photo Engineer

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Ole;

All silver chloride papers had a tiny amount of iodide in them.

PE
 

Swordfish

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Obsess over subject matter and light instead of a paper & developer combination.
If one had a bounty of beautiful, well seen work , the negatives would print well on most over- the -counter papers in todays market.

This is on the verge of camera club dialogue.

There's an incredible world to be seen out there folks ! Get over the Azo ...grab your camera , some film and .........

Do you think photographers doing important work today worry about stuff like this ? I don't think so.
I saw some of Nick Nixon's new work printed on Agfa and it looks great ! Just as good as his Azo prints. Why ? Not because of the Agfa- its because the images are so moving.
I've given Emmet Gowin some of my Azo 4 in the past......he's moved on, and he never printed on just Azo to begin with.

Myself, I've been an Azo user since the early 80's. I've known Smith for 2 decades, and frankly......Michael's work is the only imagery I can think of that benefits from the scale of Azo. So if you want to emulate him....then you're SOL.

I still have a lot of old Azo from the 70's & 80's ,and from what I've seen as far as market demand....I could make a killing selling it .
Almost all my work is non- Azo these days, but its going to a good home when I decide.

J....F.......P.......... !
 

Curt

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So is AZO paper better with Amidol or can I use Ansco 130 and still get accptable results? I've also heard that Konvecko is as good with Amidol too. It's of course rebranded contact paper still available in some parts of the world.
 

David Brown

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Obsess over subject matter and light instead of a paper & developer combination.
...
Get over the Azo ...grab your camera , some film and .........

Do you think photographers doing important work today worry about stuff like this ?

Well, this thread's on page 9. :rolleyes:
 
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In this day and age it really does not matter what paper, film or developer you find is truly representative of your "Vision and Craft".

But the reality of the situation is that if you are buying your materials a box at a time then you are at significant "artistic" risk in this game. Some people have no problem with it as they actually look forward to experimenting with materials and what it produces. Fortunately, I am up the curve a bit and no longer want to waste time in further iterations.

The continued recalibration of the infrastructure of the analog photographic industry is adjusting to new numbers of sales moving forward and the deck is being shuffled. Expect this to continue a bit into the future so this should really not be a surprise to anyone.

My advice is when you find your harmonic frequency in your photographic prints, dial up your inventory to create enough personal elasticity to the day markets and get back to making photographs and stop worrying. Where there is a will, there is a way. Get creative and do some part time work if you need to to accomplish your objective.

When a replacement for Azo becomes available I encourage many of you to reach a bit deeper into your wallets to support this product.

The simplicity in printing with silver chloride paper is the main reasons that I have resisted the alt processes up to this point. While I have many years Azo in stock it is not an infinite supply so I will be purchasing years more when the new paper becomes available. The best defense is a good offense.

Cheers!
 

Curt

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JBrunner

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Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I think this is a little misplaced considering the forum and thread.

Reminds me of a Digihead telling me to move on from film.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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So is AZO paper better with Amidol or can I use Ansco 130 and still get accptable results? I've also heard that Konvecko is as good with Amidol too. It's of course rebranded contact paper still available in some parts of the world.

Over on the Azo forum at michaelandpaula.com, Sandy King did this test, and demonstrated that you can get the same results with normal development using Ansco 130 or amidol, but amidol lets you use waterbath development to reduce contrast, which doesn't work as well with Ansco 130.
 

JBrunner

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In the absence of AZO, I have been split grade printing VC paper (particularly ADOX and polywarmtone) with 130 to good effect, and with a couple of negatives, believe I have pulled a few prints that are close to the limit of what the paper can give. I do not believe that amidol offers any advantage with this methodology, and so opt for the convenience and keeping of the 130.

I fell that 130 truly shines with vc paper and split grade. I simply use my color enlarger as the light source for my contact printing, which allows me tremendous control over exposure, and of course, the split filtering
 

David Brown

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Which of the two options do you think that this indicates?

I'm not sure what two options you are referencing, Don. I was simply trying to lighten the mood as this tread was kinda going off a bit. If I was taken too seriously, I apologize.

However, since you asked: I think that photographers doing "important work" do worry about their materials. Now that DOES NOT have any other implications and I AM NOT stating any opinion about Azo, Amidol, or anything else. None-the-less, I wonder (if not "worry") about whether or not a different film/paper/developer/working method might not make a difference in what I'm able to do. I mean, don't we all want to do the best we can with the best materials?

As always, I could be wrong ...
 

sanking

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I don't think you are wrong at all. I would bet a lot of money that John Sexton has a freezer or two loaded with his favorite films and papers. People who spend much of their lives learning to control their process get nuances from their materials that are difficult to replicate with other materials. And they ususally don't move around from one paper or developer to another. They learn what works for them, and then concentrate on making art.

Some artists never recover from the loss of their favorite materials. One famous English photograpaher gave up photograpy when factory platinum coated papers disappeared from the market. I know another photographer who quite printing silver and switched to pt./pd. when Agfa Portriga 118 disappeared.

Sandy King
 

Donald Miller

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David, I understood the basis of your post and I was only trying to further the levity that you were interjecting.
 

David Brown

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David, I understood the basis of your post and I was only trying to further the levity that you were interjecting.

Opps! Dang. Sorry. Glad to know that you understand I'm rarely to be taken seriously. Too bad I didn't get your subtlety.
 

Scott Peters

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Well, I wish I were ahead of the curve on azo earlier and as such would have really stocked up, but this was not the case. So, I will stock up on Lodima when it becomes available. In the meantime, I appreciate the 'helpful' posts as to alternative papers, developers and such. And yes, I have been able to make nice prints with other paper....and can also print scale to match AZO, btw....

I have heard slavich paper is a nice alternative and will try it as well and post findings.

Please keep reporting your findings as this is helpful.

BTW, Paula Chamlee makes some pretty darn good AZO prints too! She is a fantastic photographer along with Michael.....
 
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