Alternatives to Azo/Amidol

I guess I didn't read the marketing hype comment being related to Michael selling the paper, I thought it was referring to people selling their prints hyping the superior quality of Azo.

In any event, I didn't see it directed at any one individual.

Mike

mikebarger said:

I guess I didn't read the marketing hype comment being related to Michael selling the paper, I thought it was referring to people selling their prints hyping the superior quality of Azo.

In any event, I didn't see it directed at any one individual.

Mike

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Same here. It didn't seem directed at anyone.

I believe Michael was talking about how he has never advertised AZO paper anywhere besides for his website, and the sucess of the paper has only been because of that.

Maybe with the new Lodima paper, it could be advertised abit to draw in some new users that may not be familar with AZO, Michael and Paulas website or any photo board where AZO is discussed?

Just an idea.

There has to be some type of marketing if a product is to remain viable, simple fact in today's world. If there is no marketing, there will be no product. It may be the best paper in the world for printing, but if no one knows about it, how long will it be in production?

Hype is from the use of "hyperbole" in advertising. Exaggerated claims are used to sell cars, like Toyota's Prius which does not get the mpg advertised, or political ideas which are popular hype. tim

So proper marketing would be "Lodima Paper: in the grand tradition of Adams, the Westons & others who care about their print quality". While hype would be "it'll last forever" fine print, if properly sealed in time-capsule ;-)

I'm looking forward to using Lodima paper. I'm learning to like Kallitypes; but there is something special about a contact print made on B&W glossy paper.

I enjoy (ed) using the paper and really liked the results. Yes, I have seen great prints on other paper....but I really like the look of the AZO /chloride paper.

I am very optimistic about the outcome and eager to get more paper...as I am too judicious in my current use of remaining azo...

I appreciate Michael and Paula's effort in this endeavor and wish them the best.

In the meantime I will continue to have fun and explore other papers / developers, etc.

After all, part of the fun is the journey, no?

doughowk said:

So proper marketing would be "Lodima Paper: in the grand tradition of Adams, the Westons & others who care about their print quality". While hype would be "it'll last forever" fine print, if properly sealed in time-capsule ;-)

I'm looking forward to using Lodima paper. I'm learning to like Kallitypes; but there is something special about a contact print made on B&W glossy paper.

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Many people have coded preference for prints with high Dmax and glossy surfaces and find it hard to really like prints like kallitype and pt/pd on matte surface papers. I have a fair amount of expertise in printing both of these processes, but must admit that sometimes the lack of brillance is disappointing. They always look so great in the water, but on dry-down the magic just goes away. Carbon prints, on the other hand, have things going on that you won't see in any other process because of the 3-d dimensional quality produced by the relief, and they can have Dmax as great as silver. It is truly the most distinctive and unique of all photographic processes.

I don't do much silver printing, but what little I have done has been with AZO. I like the look, and I also like the fact that it prints more like alternative process work (long exposures) than silver. And fortuntely, I still have a fair amount of 20X24" AZO in #2 and #3.

One must appreciate people like Michael Smith who have found the perfect combination of film and paper for their work and have worked so hard to keep them available, at considerable sacrifice I imagine to their own financial well-being. Let's wish them luck in working out the kinks with the future Lodima paper.

Sandy King

I've used the last of my Azo, and eagerly await its replacement.
I liked the simplicity of making prints with just a bare lightbulb, no contrast filters. And because the paper was so slow, flashing was much easier to get texture into bare white highlights.

So to repeat the start of the thread, what's everyone going to use in the meantime? I think I'll get graded ilford paper and try Ansco developer.

Thanks Alex for sharing your experiences and providing some avenues to explore.

There really is no comparison between a well crafted AZO print and a print made on other enlargement papers. That is not to say an AZO print is superior, just that I don't think you can get that close to the look of an AZO print when you put it next to a print made on another paper. I hope Lodima does make it to market because I do believe that there is a quality to a silver chloride print that puts it in a category all by itself like platinum, collodion or a dag.

With that being said, I am in the same boat as others. I played around with AZO after the before mentioned View Camera article was published and increased my interest after joining APUG. I joined the Chinese group order of Amidol, but used up all my AZO before the amidol arrived. Now I can't justify buying AZO at current prices and since it looks like Lodima is at minimum 1 to possibly 2 years away I will end up selling the amidol since I don't believe it gives any advantages over Ansco 130 or PPPD or (or even dektol and selenium toning in some cases) with standard projection papers. When Lodima makes it to market there will probably be enough interest generated to get another large amidol order put together. Untill then, like Alex I will experiment to get something I like for contact printing 8x10 and larger negs.

How many of you ferrotype your glossy prints? After all, gloss does not come into its own on FB glossy papers until they are ferrotyped.

This is one of the methods used by the masters in the 30s, 40s and 50s.

PE

I don't ferrotype - I never cared for the look. It seems to me that the ferrotyped surface is just too obvious, and thus, distracts - sort of like too much reverb in an audio mix.
juan

I don't ferrotype either. I've seen it done in many years gone by but I generally prefer the natural texture of the glossy FB paper.

I ferrotyped for a time back in the 1980's but like others have said, I don't like the look.

I've found that if I take a neg scaled for enlarging paper that I've printed on Oriental Seagull grade 2, I can get a very similar look to the Azo print I can make from the same neg, with a slight preference for the Azo print.

If I take a neg scaled for Azo, though, I can get a much better print on Azo than I could with enlarging paper, and I think this is part of the reason that Azo prints have the potential to look as good as they do--you can use a richer negative.

Donald Miller said:

I ferrotyped for a time back in the 1980's but like others have said, I don't like the look.

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Ah, yes, the 80's.

Big hair, Journey, and ferrotyped glossy prints.

Those were the days.

Jim Chinn said:

...since it looks like Lodima is at minimum 1 to possibly 2 years away...

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Where did that estimate originate? I've not seen anything from Michael Smith lately that indicated a specific lead time or range of lead times.

David A. Goldfarb said:

If I take a neg scaled for Azo, though, I can get a much better print on Azo than I could with enlarging paper, and I think this is part of the reason that Azo prints have the potential to look as good as they do--you can use a richer negative.

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BINGO

That sums up the Azo advantage quite well

John

David A. Goldfarb said:

If I take a neg scaled for Azo, though, I can get a much better print on Azo than I could with enlarging paper, and I think this is part of the reason that Azo prints have the potential to look as good as they do--you can use a richer negative.

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Well, that's where I'm starting to take a departure from the normal course of thought. I have been printing from negatives that I originally printed on Azo. One of them was one that was so dense and contrasty that it took a lengthy exposure on the Canadian grade 2 azo and a water bath. Yet, about the only difference I can see between the Kentmere Bromide print and the Azo print, is a slight difference in tone. I'm starting to believe that some of these modern enlarging papers can do just as good. Its not that I don't still long for a silver chloride paper. But -----.

Alex, I have gotten decent results with the kentmere bromide as well. Did you use amidol? And if so, was it the azo contact or enlarging formula? Have you tried it with Ansco?

Also, I am hopeful the new lodima will be available much sooner....

Scott Peters said:

Alex, I have gotten decent results with the kentmere bromide as well. Did you use amidol? And if so, was it the azo contact or enlarging formula? Have you tried it with Ansco?

Also, I am hopeful the new lodima will be available much sooner....

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Yes Scott, I have printed Kentemere Bromide with the amidol enlarging formula and PF 130. This is the crux of my thesis. I'm having a very hard time being able to visually see the difference between the amidol print and the PF 130 print.

Sal Santamaura said:

Where did that estimate originate? I've not seen anything from Michael Smith lately that indicated a specific lead time or range of lead times.

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From what I gather on the AZO forum and Michael's updates they have had two test runs of paper. The first batch tested last April was to contrasty and cool and after 6 months of aging still has to much contrast. A new coating tested in October also had to much contrast and will need to age. So I am figuring that if the the October '06 batch tests OK in April (6 months of aging) then an actual production run will go ahead. Now if the actual production run needs to age for aprox. 6 months before it is ready, that puts us out to October of this year and then time to raise additional funds and replace outdated checks, cut and ship will probably add a few months. That gets you out to a year, longer if there are continuing challenges fine tuning the paper.

I maybe confused about the aging issue and perhaps once they get emulsion recipe correct, paper can be shipped right after it is coated. If that is the case then a best case scenario would be Lodima available this summer. I sure hope that turns out to be the case.

In most cases, an emulsion does not age 'into' being good when bad, but if it does age 'into' good, it keeps right on going out the other side to a different sort of bad.

It is just like fruit in that sense. You pick a green apple, it becomes a ripe apple on your shelf, and then suddenly you have a rotten apple. Chances are, it is one or the other, unchanging or continually changing. In either case, this will most likely be a set of unusable emulsion formulas.

This is based on emulsion experience, nothing more.

PE

I will stick to the original topic of this thread-- an alternative to Azo/Amidol. But, I will say that I think some of the popularity of Azo was the comparable ease of making great prints.

Since 2002, aside from Azo, the only two papers I have used are Kentmere Kentona and J&C Nuance. Since you can only get one of those, I suggest Kentona.

Kentona is more contrasty than Azo. Most of my negatives are scaled for Grade 2 Azo, so I don't use much Kentona. When I have used Kentona, (I can think of only 4 negatives off the top of my head) it has been lovely, and I can show it right next to an Azo print.

The surface is not as glossy as Azo. I learned from Joe Freeman that if you dry the prints over heat, or place them in contact with steam, they gain a little gloss (I have not tried this because the not-so-glossy-ness doesn't really bother me).

As for Amidol not being an advantage over something like Ansco 130: It is really irrevelant. You can make a beautiful print out of nearly anything if you 1: know what a great print is, and 2: work hard enough to achieve that.

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www.RichardBoutwell.com

Alex Hawley said:

Well, that's where I'm starting to take a departure from the normal course of thought. I have been printing from negatives that I originally printed on Azo. One of them was one that was so dense and contrasty that it took a lengthy exposure on the Canadian grade 2 azo and a water bath. Yet, about the only difference I can see between the Kentmere Bromide print and the Azo print, is a slight difference in tone. I'm starting to believe that some of these modern enlarging papers can do just as good. Its not that I don't still long for a silver chloride paper. But -----.

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Examining David G's point of view on this, I would need to agree (to a point) with what he said. Of course if one has a negative scaled to a 1.65 ES material it will print better on a 1.65 ES material than it will on a material that has a ES of 1.10...that seems pretty much a non brainer. But let's take this a step further, if we may.

When I step back to four years ago and look at what MAS himself wrote about Azo and printing on it, he clearly and repeatedly said that you needed a dense negative. That was where a lot of misinformation began. Azo does not need so much a dense negative as it needs a negative with an density range of optimally 1.65 to print on Azo grade two. Taking MAS at his use of the english language, one could have a negative that had a shadow density of .45 and a peak density of 1.65...the negative darned sure would be dense but it would like like unmitigated crap on grade two Azo. For those of you who wish to question this use of the language, I encourage you to visit the Azo forum archives.

Which brings me to my point, you can tailor make a negative to a given paper's scale and optimize your procedure to the point that you can make some very nice prints on several alternative papers. Will they be better than Azo with Amidol? Good question, that depends on who is doing the printing. A good printer with a conventional graded material will produce better prints than a marginal printer using Azo. Taking the same printer working with both materials, will produce prints that will be fine or bad with either material.

So far as Azo being an easier material to print on, I can't buy that in my experience. A good bit about the ease of printing with Azo is that you can get by with a negative with an extended DR on Azo where it would be more problematic with a conventional enlarging paper...the reason is the difference in the scales of the materials.

Now there are other factors to consider in a paper. One is the dmax of the material. There are several enlarging papers that will equal Azo on this score. Nuance and Ketona are two that do. For that matter, Azo does not exhibit any greater dmin than any number of papers. That leaves the color of the material. There are several papers that are as appealing to me as Azo.

Now please understand that my purpose in writing the above was not to diminish Azo. Nor have I sought to elevate any papers. My purpose has been to lend a degree of objectivity to an often mythical and emotionally charged matter. A matter that often has relied on a lot of arm waving and not much in
way of objective factual analysis. I have tested each of the papers that I have mentioned and so I have not attempted to portray a "mine is better than yours" subjective viewpoint into this matter.

Azo is gone...so is another of my favorite papers (PW Classic) and for the moment at least another as well (Nuance)...It is time to move on...let's use what we have at hand to the best of our abilities...for it is as true today as it has ever been, "the characteristics of the materials far outstrip our ability to use them optimally".

Thanks for allowing me to voice my opinion.

Donald, you have made a very good point, and here are two supplemental thoughts.

First, if you overexpose a negative by about 1/3 stop, you get more density and run the density range up the scale getting more breadth to the usable scale. This is why I always overexpose by this much on all negative materials, color and B&W. Now, I am not the worlds best photographer, but I do know the science of photography and know that this is one of the ways to exploit a negative film to its best advantage.

Second, by doing this, you up the exposure time making a print in most all cases, and this puts you into a different contrast reciprocity failure range for the paper if it exists. Kodak release tests paper at 10" for most contact and enlarging grades. The last batch of Azo appeared good for some people and poor for others. In general, when I talked to some of them, I found this group roughly divided into those who use long printing times and those who use short printing time for whatever reason. Some were due to the density of the negative and others were due to the light source (UV, Tungsten etc) In any event, if there is sufficient spread in these, then contrast reciprocity failure, if bad, will show up and I suspect that is the problem with the last batch of Azo. It may also be why some see the superb tone scale of Azo and others do not.

In and of itself, the curve of Azo paper, its sharpness and the support characteristics are not exceptional as B&W papers goes. It is probably in how it is handled to some rather large extent.

PE