Alternative to Bolsey cameras for double exposures?

fabulousrice · Oct 31, 2022

I have a Bolsey camera that I love because it's small and lets me do double exposures, but the issue is that very often the film tears up inside the camera.
The advance mechanism is extremely stiff and allows no room for error - if one doesn't pull the advance lever up with scientific accuracy, the film will just break and you have to go home and load a new one...

Are there other cameras out there that are small, not battery powered, have a rangefinder focusing system and will let the user take multiple exposures on the same photo - but have a better advance mechanism?

JerseyDoug · Oct 31, 2022

It is very easy to make double exposures with Barnack (LTM) Leicas.

reddesert · Oct 31, 2022

Multiple exposure is kind of a niche use case - double exposure prevention was viewed as a desirable feature when it was introduced, so most later lens-shutter rangefinders (and entry level SLRs) have no ME. If you find an earlier camera with separate shutter cocking and wind mechanisms, it is likely to allow deliberate (and accidental) double exposures. Examples include some Kodak Signets (eg Signet 40) and probably the Kodak Retina knob-wind models with a separate shutter cocking lever.

ic-racer · Oct 31, 2022

Press in the rewind button on just about any mechanical camera.

AgX · Oct 31, 2022

Yes.
(Or activate any other means of de-coupling the transport from the cocking, like a lever.)

woodlandSerenade · Oct 31, 2022

Probably not the most compact suggestion, but the Argus C3 has a solid standard lens, rangefinder focusing, and no double exposure protection. You’d also have to be willing to use a knob film advance, but it isn’t too bad once you’re used to it.

albada · Oct 31, 2022

ic-racer said:
Press in the rewind button on just about any mechanical camera.

Most such cameras have a clutch in the take-up spool that pulls the film along. Pressing the rewind button on many such cameras can cause the camera to advance more than one frame-length. To avoid that unwanted advance, you need to (1) turn the rewind knob clockwise (rewind direction) until you feel the film become taut, (2) press the rewind button, and (3) while holding the rewind in that taut position, operate the advance lever. So this procedure is a little tricky, and you can easily shift the film a little, causing the two exposures to be misaligned a little.
I like the suggestions of a Retina, Signet, or Argus C3. Also, some folders by Balda and Welti can shoot double exposures.

AgX · Oct 31, 2022

albada said:
Pressing the rewind button on many such cameras can cause the camera to advance more than one frame-length.

How can pressing such de-coupling button make the film advance at all?

At worst it could take the cocking gearing some transport movement before de-coupling (though at the moment of 3AM I got no idea how...).

In any case, this could be checked with the back open.

albada · Oct 31, 2022

AgX said:
How can pressing such de-coupling button make the film advance at all?

At worst it could take the cocking gearing some transport movement before de-coupling (though at the moment of 3AM I got no idea how...).

In any case, this could be checked with the back open.

Two components advance the film:

Take-up spool: As it rotates, it pulls the film using its clutch.
Sprocket: It ensures the film moves the correct distance, and pulls film when clutch is not enough.

The rewind release disconnects only the sprocket. Thus, the take-up spool still pulls on the film.
Important: The take-up will only move film if the friction in the film-cartridge is lower than the clutch's friction. Thus, some cameras will advance film with rewind pressed, and others won't.

Experiment: With the back open, press the rewind release, and then advance, with a finger on the sprocket and another finger on the take-up spool. You will notice that there is no force in the sprocket (disconnected), but there is substantial force in the take-up spool.

EDIT: The above is not how Bolsey cameras operate, nor a few other cameras that use the sprocket to tension the shutter, such as the Vito B. The above is true of almost all Japanese cameras made since the late 1950s.

AgX · Nov 1, 2022

Well, further above you had it about just pressing that button making the film advance.

Now I understand what you are hinting at.

It depends...

Many cameras from the 70's onwards, SLR and plain finder cameras, got the de-coupling located before the friction brake (what you call clutch). It also make no sense at rewinding to have this brake operative, as it introduces further resistance.

But you raised an interesting point: which cameras got the decoupling before and which after the friction brake? I do not remember having it discussed so far.

Anyway, even with the brake not decoupled a double exposure in some models should be possible by turning the rewind crank up to slight tension and hold it and then pressing that decoupling button and cock for the second exposure.
Hoewever at for instance the Praktica L models this does not work. Here the button gets unlocked short after the start of cocking, and sprocket transport sets in. In this very case both the crank must be held and the button kept pushed during cocking. Unwieldy, but it seems to work.

Donald Qualls · Nov 1, 2022

I don't do double exposure much, but many/most 35 mm folders (other than automatic cocking models like Retina III) can be released from the shutter (often with a cable release socket) independent of the body release -- and the release on the shutter has no interlock with the film advance. This is true, for instance, with my Balda Jubilette (which is also very compact and has a nice f/2.9 triplet).

JerseyDoug · Nov 1, 2022

I find the double exposure capability of my LTM Leicas helpful when I realize I have left the lens cap in place for a shot and I don't want to waste the frame. (I shoot 12-exposure bulk loaded rolls.)

Here's how it works: (1) Move the A/R lever from A to R. (2) Watching the dot on the shutter release button, rewind the film so the button revolves about one and a quarter turns backwards. (3) Move the A/R lever back to A. (4) Advance the film until it stops. You can now take a precisely aligned second shot on the same frame. The same procedure works with the Nikon F, but not with the later Nikon SLR's.

mrosenlof · Nov 1, 2022

With the Barnack Leica, you only need to rotate the top shutter speed dial counter-clockwise until it returns to the cocked position. Don't pull up on the dial, just rotate it. Very simple.

For cheap, the Argus C3 is a great choice; there is no double exposure prevention! The Cintar lens is fine stopped down to its middle range.

Truzi · Nov 1, 2022

However you do it, think about whether you will have a carrying case/half case that you will keep on the camera when you are taking pictures.

My one camera has a double-exposure button to disengage the transport, and it is not covered by the half-case. If it did not have this button, the release button on the bottom of the camera would be blocked by the case.

removedacct1 · Nov 1, 2022

The pre-war Retinas can do this easily. Find yourself a nice Retina Type 119 and you'll have not only a capable camera, but a work of art/engineering. The f3.5 Xenar lenses are incredibly good.

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

reddesert said:
Multiple exposure is kind of a niche use case - double exposure prevention was viewed as a desirable feature when it was introduced, so most later lens-shutter rangefinders (and entry level SLRs) have no ME. If you find an earlier camera with separate shutter cocking and wind mechanisms, it is likely to allow deliberate (and accidental) double exposures. Examples include some Kodak Signets (eg Signet 40) and probably the Kodak Retina knob-wind models with a separate shutter cocking lever.

A good rule of thumb for any manufacturer: Never think of your customer as dumb and let them choose.
One of the most high-tech film cameras (Samurai Z) has a double exposure feature, along with a few other point and shoot. But these are sadly badly made and aged very badly (glass yellowing), whereas cameras from the 50s and 60s still hold up. If anything, it's definitely not a niche but one of the few things digital hasn't been able to copy satisfyingly and one that keeps people coming back to shooting film - today at least.

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

JerseyDoug said:
It is very easy to make double exposures with Barnack (LTM) Leicas.

On top of being way more expensive, it's also a lot chunkier of a camera!

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

ic-racer said:
Press in the rewind button on just about any mechanical camera.

Please do not go around telling people to do that. I broke a Pentax ME super trying that trick, and almost broke an olympus pen FT trying to do it. Some cameras will break. Even the Olympus OM-1N - which according to the user guide allows for double exposures - is one of the crappiest cameras you can find to do double exposures holding the rewind button. Nothing will be aligned properly.

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

woodlandSerenade said:
Probably not the most compact suggestion, but the Argus C3 has a solid standard lens, rangefinder focusing, and no double exposure protection. You’d also have to be willing to use a knob film advance, but it isn’t too bad once you’re used to it.

Good suggestion, on topic - thanks! But what an eyesore this camera is

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

albada said:
Most such cameras have a clutch in the take-up spool that pulls the film along. Pressing the rewind button on many such cameras can cause the camera to advance more than one frame-length. To avoid that unwanted advance, you need to (1) turn the rewind knob clockwise (rewind direction) until you feel the film become taut, (2) press the rewind button, and (3) while holding the rewind in that taut position, operate the advance lever. So this procedure is a little tricky, and you can easily shift the film a little, causing the two exposures to be misaligned a little.
I like the suggestions of a Retina, Signet, or Argus C3. Also, some folders by Balda and Welti can shoot double exposures.

As I said to the other guy, pressing the rewind button will most likely break the mechanisms of a number of cameras, and I strongly oppose giving this advice to people wanting to do double exposures since I found out. Thanks for the suggestions at the end - some of the best I read so far! - do you know if all Signet cameras will allow it - or only some?

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

AgX said:
Well, further above you had it about just pressing that button making the film advance.

Now I understand what you are hinting at.

It depends...

Many cameras from the 70's onwards, SLR and plain finder cameras, got the de-coupling located before the friction brake (what you call clutch). It also make no sense at rewinding to have this brake operative, as it introduces further resistance.

But you raised an interesting point: which cameras got the decoupling before and which after the friction brake? I do not remember having it discussed so far.

Anyway, even with the brake not decoupled a double exposure in some models should be possible by turning the rewind crank up to slight tension and hold it and then pressing that decoupling button and cock for the second exposure.
Hoewever at for instance the Praktica L models this does not work. Here the button gets unlocked short after the start of cocking, and sprocket transport sets in. In this very case both the crank must be held and the button kept pushed during cocking. Unwieldy, but it seems to work.

Using the rewing button will break some cameras. I oppose it.

fabulousrice · Nov 1, 2022

JerseyDoug said:
I find the double exposure capability of my LTM Leicas helpful when I realize I have left the lens cap in place for a shot and I don't want to waste the frame. (I shoot 12-exposure bulk loaded rolls.)

Here's how it works: (1) Move the A/R lever from A to R. (2) Watching the dot on the shutter release button, rewind the film so the button revolves about one and a quarter turns backwards. (3) Move the A/R lever back to A. (4) Advance the film until it stops. You can now take a precisely aligned second shot on the same frame. The same procedure works with the Nikon F, but not with the later Nikon SLR's.

Using the rewing button will break some cameras. I oppose it. I am also looking for a small camera like the bolsey, not something heavy and bulky like a canon or nikon slr

Vaughn · Nov 1, 2022

Not a range finder, but the Nikon cheapie, the FM10, had a lever that allowed you to cock the shutter without advancing the film. A light-weight smallish (plastic) camera (SLR).

Truzi · Nov 1, 2022

Perhaps a Zeiss Ikon Contessa 35? You have to cock the shutter manually, and you have to turn a knob to advance the film - not sure how that'd work for you.

reddesert · Nov 1, 2022

fabulousrice said:
A good rule of thumb for any manufacturer: Never think of your customer as dumb and let them choose.

Just get a camera without double exposure prevention, because that's what your set of requirements is leading to. Multiple exposure levers are a relatively niche item that adds another mechanism, and so didn't make it onto the typical 1960s-70s leaf-shutter rangefinder, which was a sort of entry-level good camera for people who didn't want or need an SLR. The Signet 40 that I suggested predates these, as do knob wind Retinas, and definitely are RFs with uncoupled shutter cocking.

I started off with cameras that did not have double exposure interlocks (I am not *that* old, but I was a kid and we had a lot of hand-me-down things) and it was annoying, another way of screwing things up. That's why manufacturers added features to idiot-proof picture taking.

Alternative to Bolsey cameras for double exposures?

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