Alternative E-6 First Developer -- Xtol-R (or equivalent)?

[Donald Qualls]

From what I've seen, the only thing I'm lacking to process E-6 is a First Developer that will produce the correct density and curve in each layer to give accurate color (developing to completion in RA-4 color dev should handle the second dev step, and C-41 bleach and fixer will work the same on E-6 film). Since I have several rolls of E-6 built up, and am interested in shooting more chromes (mainly medium format or 4x5), I'd like to nail down a process that won't require me to buy and store still more chemistry that will pass its shelf life on the shelf between batches.

So, I have a running replenished Xtol tank solution, and don't know any good reason that shouldn't work as a first dev, given the correct combination of temperature and time to get the three layers to the right contrast. I presume I'll want to process at close to the canonical 100F E-6 temperature, to get the correct balance of emulsion penetration and development level -- but given Xtol stock has dev times similar to D-76 stock, and the first dev for E-6 is both more aggressive and runs longer than I'd process B&W (especially at that temperature), I presume I'll need to run the film rather longer than temperature-corrected seven minutes (which would become something under three minutes at that temp) in Xtol.

Any sensible, well-founded information on how long I should process with this combination (E-6 film, Xtol stock as first dev, 100F)?

 

[mohmad khatab]

From what I've seen, the only thing I'm lacking to process E-6 is a First Developer that will produce the correct density and curve in each layer to give accurate color (developing to completion in RA-4 color dev should handle the second dev step, and C-41 bleach and fixer will work the same on E-6 film). Since I have several rolls of E-6 built up, and am interested in shooting more chromes (mainly medium format or 4x5), I'd like to nail down a process that won't require me to buy and store still more chemistry that will pass its shelf life on the shelf between batches.

So, I have a running replenished Xtol tank solution, and don't know any good reason that shouldn't work as a first dev, given the correct combination of temperature and time to get the three layers to the right contrast. I presume I'll want to process at close to the canonical 100F E-6 temperature, to get the correct balance of emulsion penetration and development level -- but given Xtol stock has dev times similar to D-76 stock, and the first dev for E-6 is both more aggressive and runs longer than I'd process B&W (especially at that temperature), I presume I'll need to run the film rather longer than temperature-corrected seven minutes (which would become something under three minutes at that temp) in Xtol.

Any sensible, well-founded information on how long I should process with this combination (E-6 film, Xtol stock as first dev, 100F)?

------------------------------------------------

I know that you hate me ,,
But I will tell you what I think of the story.
Let's make a general rule.
You can consider me officially crazy,
Of course, when a crazy person speaks, we should not discuss what he says, and on the basis of that rule I will speak.
A liter (Xtol) work solution. ( The lowest dilution ratio available, preferably if it is stuck )
Add the following to it.
Potassium iodide, 0.1% ……………………… 6 ml
Potassium thiocyanate. .................................1.8g
Kbr ................................................................. 2g
Benzotriazole ................................................0.04 g
The acidity should reach 10.3
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Color developer (work solution) Whether it is (C41) or (RA4)
The PH number is increased and raised to 11.6
Using (KOH)
--------------------------------------------------------------

first developer is 22 minutes at 20 ° C
Color developer - 14 minutes at 20 ° C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, a re-exposure step
It can be made by lightening or chemically, you know that perfectly.

A stopping solution should be used. Following the first developer to remove traces of Thiocyanate.

We have agreed that if a madman speaks, you should not discuss it.

This is my view of the situation .. and I am certain that this recipe will succeed by 95% - I already had an experiment in this context and it was relatively successful had it not been that the film was very old and worn out (Fuji Sensia) expired since 1995 and was in storage on the roof Residential architecture in one of the stairs and the sun of Cairo surround this store from each side for a period of 25 years.
But nevertheless there were signs that the idea worked somewhat and I got a picture, but it was so weak because the emulsion was so worn out.

You can trust what I tell you ,,
And you can not trust me - the way you are normal.
as you like .
I am not waiting for you to say thank you, because you will not say it and this is your natural method.
Good-bye

 

[Donald Qualls]

Thanks, Mohmad. That's actually useful -- I'd forgotten the need to add other ingredients (especially thiocyanate, which I wouldn't want in a solution I intend to keep using for regular black and white film) to the first developer.

Seems like I should go back to the original idea to use something like Dektol (high activity MQ-carbonate universal developer) with thiosulfate or thiocyanate added, just as I would for B&W reversal. Since Dektol is used one-shot anyway (diluted 1+1 or 1+2 for paper, or 1+9 for film, usually) adding a little something during dilution for a special need is no big deal -- and I've used Dektol with added thiosulfate as a first developer for B&W reversal in the past, so it's just a matter of finding the right time/temp and dilution for use as E-6 first dev.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Thanks, Mohmad. That's actually useful -- I'd forgotten the need to add other ingredients (especially thiocyanate, which I wouldn't want in a solution I intend to keep using for regular black and white film) to the first developer.

Seems like I should go back to the original idea to use something like Dektol (high activity MQ-carbonate universal developer) with thiosulfate or thiocyanate added, just as I would for B&W reversal. Since Dektol is used one-shot anyway (diluted 1+1 or 1+2 for paper, or 1+9 for film, usually) adding a little something during dilution for a special need is no big deal -- and I've used Dektol with added thiosulfate as a first developer for B&W reversal in the past, so it's just a matter of finding the right time/temp and dilution for use as E-6 first dev.

Welcome, dear teacher
Thiocyanate is most successful with (E6) emulsifiers.
- In my humble opinion, (thiosulfate) can only deal with an emulsifier (black and white), and I think it will not work with emulsifier (E6) because it contains other layers and the story with it will be complicated and unknown.

I wish you had an undiluted developer (some developer formulas work directly without dilution) ,, will ensure greater success of the process. And if you do not have it, the dilution ratio should be minimal.
- Trust me completely ,,

I will not deceive you, and I have no interest in misleading you.
These instructions are the result of practical experiments that I have carried out and are not mere speculation or out of imagination.

Why do I expect these guidelines to succeed?
Simply because it will make the process very close and possibly identical to the process (AP41) in terms of components, PH number, time and temperature.
This means that all of this story is based on a largely sound scientific basis and based on an official formula that still works successfully today.

Conclusion :
Trust me the story will succeed wow. And that new formula will be written in your name ,, (Mr Donald's formula)
I fully support your idea.
You have a count of 6, and it is not worth it to cost yourself to buy an ammunition (E6). So you are thinking in an unconventional way in order to find new solutions that will process and develop these rolls without wasting money in vain.

Greetings to you .

 

[nickandre]

FYI Cinestill makes a "creative slide" kit with a different 1st developers to get different contrast/dynamic range. It would be interesting to test a regular old BW developer and see what happens.

I think the only major requirement for E6 is CD3, so I think you could use CD3 in RA4. The CD step goes to completion so it's not a huge deal, though it's likely the RA4 developer uses a different concentration (usually this is the case with paper), which I don't imagine would be a problem unless there's inadequate CD3 in the mix for a roll or something. You could run E6 CD with the lid off and shine a lil old flashlight into the reel to get the fogging.

 

[Donald Qualls]

FYI Cinestill makes a "creative slide" kit with a different 1st developers to get different contrast/dynamic range. It would be interesting to test a regular old BW developer and see what happens.

I think the only major requirement for E6 is CD3, so I think you could use CD3 in RA4. The CD step goes to completion so it's not a huge deal, though it's likely the RA4 developer uses a different concentration (usually this is the case with paper), which I don't imagine would be a problem unless there's inadequate CD3 in the mix for a roll or something. You could run E6 CD with the lid off and shine a lil old flashlight into the reel to get the fogging.

Even better, Cinestill sells their three first devs (the standard, "tungsten balance", and high dynamic range) separate from their E6 kit. Someone here recently reported "weird colors" in a tank after getting new chems; one of the films in there was (intended to be) cross-process E6 in C-41 -- except he realized after the fact that the reason the developer smelled odd is he'd gotten Ektacolor RA-4 developer instead of Flexicolor C-41. Colors reversed without correction looked good, but the C-41 film was just a little funky.

I'm old enough that I've actually (helped) process E-4 with light exposure reversal, back around 1974.

So, yes, with the right first dev, light exposure reversal, and RA-4 color dev, followed by C-41 bleach, fix, and possibly a home-brew formalin stabilizer (yes, I have good ventilation in my darkroom -- a 400 CFM exhaust fan and matching inlet grid, both light tight, for a 9x9 darkroom space) ought to produce equivalent results.

As far as concentration, most print developers in the B&W world are more concentrated/active than similar film developers. Dektol, for instance, is used 1+1 or 1+2 for prints, but 1+9 for film. Presuming the same is true for RA-4 vs. E-6 color dev, we just need to keep the film in the bath long enough to ensure all the layers get fully developed; don't really need to worry about having enough developing agent. And, as you say, this can be done with the lid off the tank, under room light.

 

[Rowreidr]

Hi Donald, not sure how much this will help, but I use HC110 as FD followed by Flexicolor for my expired slide, no additional of chemicals, based on this article.

https://filmandtubes.tumblr.com/post/175065123616/x-pro-reversal-perfected

He has some examples of different stocks

I ended up using his 1+15, 102F, and 6:30 for some Astia and went up to 105F 7:00 for some 5071. I tried a side by side comparison with fresh E6 chems vs my nearly 5 month old Flexicolor-R, which I subsequently retired because the results were that bad, previously getting visually acceptable results with party used but not replenished C41. When I get around to making some fresh C41 dev and have a non testing reason to heat up all those bottles, I give it a try again.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

There's a long thread by @earlz here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-6-transparencies-with-c-41-chemicals.160510/

 

[Donald Qualls]

@Raghu Kuvempunagar I'm not talking about using Flexicolor for the color developer, I plan to use RA-4 color dev (which has the correct developing agent, hence will produce the correct dyes instead of giving a color shifted "cross processed" look.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

@Raghu Kuvempunagar I'm not talking about using Flexicolor for the color developer, I plan to use RA-4 color dev (which has the correct developing agent, hence will produce the correct dyes instead of giving a color shifted "cross processed" look.

Something along these lines?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Something along these lines?

Yes, he's got a start. Looks like Dektol can stand in for Ilford PQ Universal, and I may need to dilute beyond the usual film strength. Or I may just buy a package of the Cinestill product -- wish the normal was sold in powder form like the tungsten correcting and wide dynamic versions. Adjusting pH of the RA-4 color dev isn't hard -- I have 75% acetic acid and sodium hydroxide drain opener on hand. Might have to buy a pH meter, though.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yes, he's got a start. Looks like Dektol can stand in for Ilford PQ Universal, and I may need to dilute beyond the usual film strength. Or I may just buy a package of the Cinestill product -- wish the normal was sold in powder form like the tungsten correcting and wide dynamic versions. Adjusting pH of the RA-4 color dev isn't hard -- I have 75% acetic acid and sodium hydroxide drain opener on hand. Might have to buy a pH meter, though.

Mr. Donald
I really love you, brother.
You are a respectful and hardworking man.

 

[grainyvision]

There's a long thread by @earlz here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-6-transparencies-with-c-41-chemicals.160510/

One important note if following my thread today. I can't recall where but someone reported trying this with the new formula HC-110 and getting poor results, specifically speed decrease, lower contrast, strong blue color cast. I never tested this with the new HC-110 and only used the old (water free) HC-110. However, many people have reported good results from Dektol (I've tried this myself. Requires more tweaking, but better for E100 than HC-110 which goes very green) and whatever B/W paper developer Fuji sells (don't have it AFAIK in the US). Also have heard of people trying a similar process using ECN-2 and RA-4 color developer, but with poorer results. ECN-2 I believe had much lower contrast and overall came out dark (over developed in color) and RA-4 gave wild color casts.. but I'd have to search to find the references I saw for that now. Since ECN-2 color developer is easier for me to use now than C-41 (one jar of CD-3 goes a long way heh) I might get back into it and see if I can make that work, but if I go that route now I'd also want to formulate a custom first developer and such and although that'd be fun, it's also probably a lot less interesting for the people just wanting to use off the shelf chemicals.

If you want to look for a new first developer, I'd recommend only using a developer with high contrast, OR adding a silver solvent such as thiocyanate so that it can better clear the highlights. With certain developers such as D-76, you can get decent results but always with a speed loss of 1-2 stops and magenta cast, no matter how long you develop it for. If box speed is not your absolute requirement though, then its a little more forgiving in terms of color cast, contrast, and saturation if you can downgrade the film speed by 1 stop

Also for reference I used both Flexicolor and Tetinal (powder) C-41 kits. The powder kit gave better results but only when very fresh. After two runs it gives a magenta color shift. Flexicolor is more consistent, but slightly worse results overall. With any kit make sure to extend bleach/blix time by at least 25%.