Alright, how did I ruin my first tank of C-41?

williaty · Feb 14, 2017

My first tank of C-41 was a failure and I need your help figuring out what went wrong. The test roll (thank god) of film is still drying so I can't handle it too much yet or take pictures of it for you guys. I know it'd be easier for you all to diagnose the problem if you can see it but I wanted to get something up here before it got late enough everyone would be in bed. I'll add pictures in a few hours once the film is dry.

So, the film. From one side, it looks almost normal with perhaps just a bit more film base plus fog than I'm used to seeing. From the other side, it looks like someone has smeared mustard over the whole thing. The film is mustard colored (obviously, given my last sentence) and not as glossy as it should be. Oddly, the EXTREME edges of the film and a tiny ring around each sprocket hole actually look normal. I do have images on the film that look like they're in a reasonable density and contrast range for C-41.

EDIT: Nothing was wrong, I had simply never seen wet C-41 before.

The process:

Kodak Flexicolor LORR Developer properly started, used straight
Kodak C-41SM Processing Unit F2 bleach, used straight
Kodak C-41SM Processing Unit F2 Fixer, used diluted 1:1
Kodak Tank Final Rinse used straight

All processing was carried out at 100F in a Jobo CPP-2. I used 300mL of each chemical as per the requirements for the tank I was using. Timing was as follows:

1) 5'00" pre-wash because it's a Jobo
2) 3'15" developer
3) 6'30" bleach
4) 3'15" running water wash
5) 6'30" fixer
6) 3'15" running water wash
7) 1'30" Tank final rinse

Any idea what I screwed up?

RPC · Feb 14, 2017

C-41 film looks very milky when wet. As for the color, it might just be the mask, but normally it is not mustard yellow. Let it dry then re-evaluate.

williaty · Feb 14, 2017

I have to admit that, for all the years I spent processing C-41 professionally, I never once saw it before it was dry. I'll give it some time and then re-evaluate.

Down Under · Feb 14, 2017

I've been home processing C41 since the '90s, using Tetenal kits, never a problem. A few times I underdeveloped (too little time in the dev or dev part exhausted, not sure which). results still OK, but a bother to scan. No end of corrections in PP. Otherwise the process is fine if instructions are closely adhered to and temperature is kept stable.

A few questions come to mind...

How old is the film?
How old are the chemicals?
When were the chemicals mixed to the process dilution? Did you use the mixed chemicals before and then let them sit for an overly long time between film batches?
Is this maybe a bleaching problem? Did you give your bleach mix a hundred shakes before using it, to get it nicely aerated? If your bleach is the culprit, maybe try bleaching again using a new bleach mix, this MAY solve the problem.
Any possibility of contamination between the chemicals? (This seems unlikely,but there is always a remote possibility.)
Is there such a thing as solarisation of C41 being processed? (Again unlikely, but the thought did cross my mind.)

Just my thoughts. Others may want to add their own ideas.

Yes, please, let us see the finished negatives if the condition persists after drying. APUG wizards enjoy a challenge.

sfaber17 · Feb 14, 2017

You are using fast process chemicals so you can shorten things:
1. Use 2 30 sec pre-washes
3.1'30'' bleach
4. don't need but can wash for 1 min or so
5. 2'30'' fix

Photo Engineer · Feb 14, 2017

You always have to wash C41 products free of bleach and fix for ultimate stability.

PE

williaty · Feb 14, 2017

RPC said:
C-41 film looks very milky when wet. As for the color, it might just be the mask, but normally it is not mustard yellow. Let it dry then re-evaluate.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

I just had never seen wet C-41 before. Unlike B&W film, C-41 looks really, really weird when wet. In all my past experience working at a lab, it always rumbled out of the machine nice and dry and I never saw it wet.

sfaber17 said:
You are using fast process chemicals so you can shorten things:
1. Use 2 30 sec pre-washes
3.1'30'' bleach
4. don't need but can wash for 1 min or so
5. 2'30'' fix

Can you link to a Kodak document showing that the timing has changed vs the timing document for Flexicolor that Photo Engineer has posted here on APUG?

williaty · Feb 14, 2017

I was using cheap Kodak UltraMax 400 film as a sacrificial test roll. I've done one scan of it now and I think everything is OK.

This is with the grayscale linearized from the scan:

Here it is after a bit of a contrast bump to make things look a little more realistic:

sfaber17 · Feb 15, 2017

williaty said:
Can you link to a Kodak document showing that the timing has changed vs the timing document for Flexicolor that Photo Engineer has posted here on APUG?

I don't think there is a link anymore. You can get the documents from Kodak Alaris. The reference is :
z131_03.pdf page 3-6. You are using C-41RA. The RA is for rapid not RA-4. It shows 1:00 min for bleach and 2:00 for fix, 2:00 min for wash. I was just showing the differences to your steps in the last post and didn't mean to imply you skip the final wash.

chassis · Feb 15, 2017

This is the document I was referred to from another APUG member. Not sure what date/version is is from. It is helpful and worth reading.

williaty · Feb 15, 2017

sfaber17 said:
I don't think there is a link anymore. You can get the documents from Kodak Alaris. The reference is :
z131_03.pdf page 3-6. You are using C-41RA. The RA is for rapid not RA-4. It shows 1:00 min for bleach and 2:00 for fix, 2:00 min for wash. I was just showing the differences to your steps in the last post and didn't mean to imply you skip the final wash.

None of the packaging is labeled C-41RA. How does Kodak indicate that the C-41SM Processing Unit F2 is actually from the C-41RA line? Kodak's communication on this stuff is about as clear as mud!

sfaber17 · Feb 16, 2017

That's true. There is another sheet on SM, but if you look up the MSDS sheet the SM bleach is the same as the C41RA, and the same for the fixer. z101_02.pdf has some info but it is somewhat confusing because there are different versions of SM.

bvy · Feb 16, 2017

Unless you're in some kind of hurry, just bleach for three minutes and fix for six, and you'll be fine. I do recall reading that the F2 bleach and fix were fast-acting, but in the interest of simplicity and peace of mind, I apply the longer times.

You're just going to get confused and frustrated trying to figure out what Kodak docs apply to what chemicals. These are the only instructions you need.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

My only modification to this is a couple of prewashes, and a quick stop and rinse after developer to help maintain the pH of the bleach.

Alright, how did I ruin my first tank of C-41?

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