Alpa and Fotoman

[Tom Stanworth]

with the release of the Fotoman 69, std and shift, there is now a point and shoot competitor to the Alpa, which takes a variety of LF lenses and backs. so my question is this:

Alpa prices are astounding and I have no doubt that the compenents are beautifully made. My question is to what end. I have heard that Alpa film backs are made to much higher tolerances and that film flatness is supposed to be better than with Horseman or Wista backs (is it really?). I am curious as to whether this makes any difference in the real world, especially considering that few Alpas are used wide open and I presume (maybe I am wrong) that most are stopped down moderately to make the use of scale focused lenses more practical. I am sure some use them off a tripod with ground glass backs, but suspect this is the minority.

I owned a Fotoman 612 and regret selling it. It was solid and well machined, but the tolerances were probably less perfect than an Alpa; however, the trannies were incredibly detailed. The new 69 from Fotoman allows the use of ultra wide lenses such a the 38XL on 6x9 format - something no other point and shoot/RF offered apart from the Alpa - which is appreciably wider than even the 43mm on a Mamiya 7 6x7 neg. One could also potentially use digital backs and digitar lenses if required.

I would be interested to know if the extra expense of the Alpa (I am not buying one because I cannot!) has any real functionality now that a camera is available that allows use of the same lenses, in all likelihood to the same end for a tiny fraction of the price. I realise the Alpa is a beautiful bit of kit, but at about $12/13K for one single camera and lens, back and finder (without shift) and no longer on unique turf, it looks less sensible than ever before. The grip on the new Fotoman looks less ergonomically comfortable, but still...at $9,500 less for a 6x9 with a 38/47XL, I am sure most could live with that and I suspect the results on film are indistinguishable.

If the fotoman 69 is like the 612, solidity is not an issue with the body.

well done Fotoman!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Alpa makes the mounting plates for Alpa backs, but they're otherwise Linhof Super-Rollex backs, which do have superior film flatness. You can often find used Super-Rollex backs for 4x5" cameras for under $400, and they'll fit any camera with a Graflok/International style back. If Fotoman makes a 4x5" with a Graflok, maybe that's your solution.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

David,

I think the Fotoman uses the std fitting for the non-5x4 fitting backs ie the type 1 and type 2 backs designed for 6x9/7 cameras. I doubt I will go in this direction, but the 6x9 fotoman is very small, offers shift with the shift version, cost a fraction of an Alpa, takes interchangeable backs and all LF lenses. Sounds like a winner! If the super rollex backs are superior in flatness, then these benefits can be had with the Fotoman too.

Should be very quick to set up on a tripod using DOF scales and the eternal finder, offering superb performance and flexibility. the 38XL and 6x9 sounds very appealing, especially with the shift option!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Super-Rollex backs, unfortunately, aren't available in sizes that would fit a standard 2x3" Graflok back. The 2x3" Technikas have a different rotating back arrangement, but the inserts for 4x5" and 2x3" Super-Rollex backs are interchangeable. So that's why I was suggesting a 4x5" Fotoman and a Super-Rollex in your format of choice.

There is a 2x3" Rapid-Rollex back that slips under the groundglass and should work on a 6x9 Fotoman, but it's quite rare. I've seen maybe one used for about $1000 once. I'm not sure if they are available new anymore, or how much one would cost.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...There is a 2x3" Rapid-Rollex back that slips under the groundglass and should work on a 6x9 Fotoman, but it's quite rare. I've seen maybe one used for about $1000 once. I'm not sure if they are available new anymore, or how much one would cost.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31556-REG/Linhof_001566_23_Rapid_Rollex_Film.html

Still available new. This is for the "US" version. Direct imports, through other dealers, should cost around 2/3 as much. At least that was the ratio when I purchased mine around five years ago.

 

[HerrBremerhaven]

I don't think this really compares with ALPA. The grips on an ALPA 12 are very close to the centre of mass, which makes for a good hand held balance. If you compare to the ALPA 12TC, then the Fotoman is much closer in concept, making the execution (precision) the main difference. The locking mechanisms on an ALPA are very precise, as are their machining tolerances. It might be arguable whether such precision is necessary or practical, though the cost of an ALPA is mostly a reflection of that precision.

Fotoman Camera are to be commended for a very well designed product. It is not a discount ALPA, and I don't think should be compared to one. Cropping down the final 6x9 image to more panoramic images is something a few photographers have often mentioned, including Roger Hicks. So in a way, I see it as quite a nice compact multi-use medium format body. This looks to be a prestige product in the evolution of Fotoman, and I think it should be judged on its own merits. Not so long ago, there were inquires Fotoman put out to photographers of what they would like to see in a 6x9 camera, and I think the mostly met those expectations.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography

 

[JohnBrew]

Have ordered Fotoman 69

This is my first post here. I'm a longtime shooter, 48 years and counting, and have decided to spend more of my time with film. While I've never quit shooting film, I've been eaten up by the digital development machine for the past seven years. I recently tried out a Fotoman 612. I liked the thoughtfullness needed when shooting this camera and the negatives just blew me away. However I found the 612 format too confining and was thrilled when the 69 was announced. I should have the camera in about two weeks and will keep you posted of the results and experiences.

 

[keeds]

Will be really interested to hear how you get on with the 69. Are you getting the handle version? Will be using handheld or on a tripod? What focal length will you be using?

 

[JohnBrew]

Will be really interested to hear how you get on with the 69. Are you getting the handle version? Will be using handheld or on a tripod? What focal length will you be using?

I will be using it handheld and on tripod. I already have a 65 f4 SW Nikkor (which I used on the 612) and have also ordered a 105. The wider lens will be used for landscapes, the other for street shooting.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

JohnBrew,

I will be very interested to hear how you get on with it. I though the 612 to be very solid and cleanly made. It may be simple, but there was nothing wrong with that! The 69 appeals because of its ability to take really wide lenses, such as the 35/38mm and interchangeable lenses.

There's no doubt that the Alpa is better made, or more accurately made, and that ergonomics are better, but I will be interested to see if a second handle could be added to the 69 making a more balanced camera. As wonderful as the Alpa is the extra utility comes at one heck of a price. This 69 would be an amazing travel landscape camera, with a very light tripod, unless one wants to use long lenses of course. If working from 38 to say std (90) not much will beat it. The Shift would be very useful too on the 'S' version and I have to say that it is not so much the getting under a darkcloth for composition that slows even non-folder 5x4 cameras down (such as Ebony SW45) but the focus. One does not need a terribly bright image to check front rise and so with this 69S, even using the shift will be a doddle and then the zone focusing takes care of teh rest. Years shooting has helped me estimate distances too, so the neccessity for actually focusing on the glass is almost zero, esp with the shorter lenses.

what a great little camera!

 

[keeds]

JohnBrew, how are you going with the Fotoman 69? A quick review and photo samples would sure be great!

 

[JohnBrew]

I'm really liking the Fotoman 69. Unfortunately I haven't scanned any images because I don't have a 120 scanner and also because I've had the lab I use print for me! I rigged up a handle which does work well for hand held shots, although I'll probably add the Fotoman handle since it's out now. The Horseman back works very well. Construction is top notch and this seems to be a camera for a lifetime. I've been shooting with a 65/4 Nikkor (28 equivalent in 35mm) and a Schneider 100/5.6 (44 equivalent in 35mm). I would like to add a 180 in the future. I will post some images sometime - either I'll buy a scanner or have some drum scanned, but they ain't cheap for the drum scanning! I'm enclosing a pic of the street shooting rig.

 

[keeds]

Thanks for the update. Looks like a sweet little set-up. Couple of Q's if you don't mind. How have you done with the focussing? And how is the finder?

 

[JohnBrew]

Focusing is by hyperfocal or scale. I've been doing it for years, no problem. The finder uses masks for different lenses. The finder is big and bright. The 65 mask is fine, the one for the 100 is a 105 mask and it has to be compensated for and I don't care for it. I believe this is one of the few masks offered that has this problem.

 

[Greg_E]

If you don't want them scanned fast, I have a Nikon 8000 and might be interested in doing a few for cheaper than drum prices.

 

[JohnBrew]

Thank you for your offer, Greg. At the moment I'm up to date with my negs, trying to finish up a roll of Astia which will then have to be sent off for developing. However, I'll keep it in mind.