Along with Fuji's price increase was the news....

RattyMouse · Mar 26, 2013

DREW WILEY said:
A a professional buyer for a wide range of manufactured goods, I say that overall, the last decade has
seen less inflation and more price stability than any time I can remember. Certain deliberately gamed
commodities like steel or copper could wildly fluctuate at times. Certain products like paint which are
held hostage to limited sources of titanium oxide etc have gone up. Food is inevitably going to go up
due to more severe droughts and increased competition for water from sprawl and energy extraction etc.
But film just seems to be doing the inevitable once price wars have stopped, with Kodak and Fuji no
longer competing head to head in identical categoris, and the product is no longer essentially subsidized. Those kinds of wars are now going on in amateur digital cameras betwen various companies, some of whom are risking their neck. Otherwise, things dependent on petrochemicals like
film base have also inevitably gone up. I shoot 8x10, so I'm painfully aware of cost increases, but as
long as I can remember, film this size wasn't exactly cheap and required a commitment. But at least
color paper is quite affordable now.

I'm in the chemical industry and I have seen enormous inflation the past 3-4 years. Price increases are just never ending. As a result we are sourcing chemicals from 3rd world developing countries rather than pay the enormous costs that "mainstream" suppliers are demanding.

wblynch · Mar 26, 2013

Funny how costs and prices continue to skyrocket yet wages are still tanking. It is even more confusing considering the improved worker productivity.

What drives these costs up if not labor? Incessant thirst for profits?

jernejk · Mar 26, 2013

RattyMouse said:
I dont think it is that simple. If you read Fujifilm's quarterly results, they do not make much money at all from digital cameras. Hard to believe but it is true. In fact, their entire imaging division LOOSES money. I looked back from today's year all the way back to 2005. Not one year reported a profit in their imaging division. Not one. It seems that their film chemicals keep the looses from being too high.

Well, Fuji's annual report is certainly an interesting read http://www.fujifilmholdings.com/en/pdf/investors/annual_report/ff_ar_2012_all.pdf

63% of imaging revenue is from photo imaging and the rest from digital imaging. And yes, combined they are making $40 million loss.
The breakdown does not go more into detail, so it's hard to say what percentage of photo imaging comes from film. Fuji seems to bet on color photo paper and printing services. To an average APUG member, those would probably qualify as "electronic" anyway.

It's impossible to say really what's the current demand for film from the report. Some people in the industry know. Kodak, Fuji, Adox and their distributors do. We could guess some of the numbers or at least trends by studying Adox and fotoimpex revenue, for example - but I'm not sure the data is publicly available, at least not for free?

What is sure though is that price elasticity of demand for film is getting lower. What this means is that you are going to buy Velvia or Acros no matter the price - because you really need them to achieve what you want or because you are loyal to the brand. So the whole economics of film is changing upside down, from high volume commodity to low volume niche. It also means we can expect further price increase also by other manufacturers (if they are smart, they should follow Fuji's lead).

noacronym · Mar 26, 2013

RattyMouse said:
I'm in the chemical industry and I have seen enormous inflation the past 3-4 years. Price increases are just never ending. As a result we are sourcing chemicals from 3rd world developing countries rather than pay the enormous costs that "mainstream" suppliers are demanding.

Yes, and to think these worries originate in a small town in Maryland.

nickrapak · Mar 27, 2013

wblynch said:
Funny how costs and prices continue to skyrocket yet wages are still tanking. It is even more confusing considering the improved worker productivity.

What drives these costs up if not labor? Incessant thirst for profits?

My guess is supply and demand. More and more people are moving higher in socioeconomic status, especially those in the two most populous nations. As their SES improves, they demand the same luxuries that Americans and Western Europeans have. As the demand increases, the price will increase to equilibrium.

Vaughn · Mar 27, 2013

One of the constant sources of income for some film manufacturers has been film for the movie industry. With the demand for that decreasing, some of that income might need to be recovered in the still camera film market.

DREW WILEY · Mar 27, 2013

Certain raw materials are hostage to poliltical complications between various countries, some are essentially commodities which are being unfairly gamed to make middlemen obscenely rich at the expense of the both the public and economic common sense. Petrochemicals fall into both categories.
But at least here in the US, overall inflation of mfg goods was exceptionally stable for about a decade.
China is a very different scenario because of a very different internal economic model, as well as its
mushrooming growth. Film is a pretty small player in all of this and is probably just now reaching an
inevitable economic equilbrium in the face of reduced demand. It you can't afford that fact, just don't
waste as many shots. I'd prefer we all waste a lot of shots, so the demand for film would stay healthy.
But I shoot 8x10 and am not exactly rich, so if it's not worth actually printing, I won't trip the shutter.

wblynch · Mar 27, 2013

So if the demand is high the price goes up

But if the demand is low the price goes up

markrewald · Mar 27, 2013

wblynch said:
So if the demand is high the price goes up

But if the demand is low the price goes up

APUG needs to have a like post option Bill. This has been my feeling related to analog film prices of late. They are not following the law of economics at all. Or at least what my freshman hung over 30 year over recollection remembers of it.

DREW WILEY · Mar 27, 2013

Nonsense. They are simply doing what they have to do it they intend to keep making film and still stay
in business. These aren't charities. In the past film wars combined with high volume factored into the
equation, but now its a more limited selection and less redundancy or direct competition between the
manufacturers. The price wars are going on elsewhere (like consumer electronics), so something has to turn a profit. And if you do factor for typical inflation over several decades, relative to the cost of other
things, film really hasn't gone up that much. It just seems like it because of its sudden spike in the last
couple of years. But I suspect that kind of adjustment was long overdue.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 27, 2013

...that film demand is still decreasing.

While this may be true in countries like Japan and the US where the love of gadgetry is overwhelming. This does not seems to be true in other regions of the world where film is still popular.

brianmquinn · Mar 27, 2013

The thing to realize is all sellers always charge the most they can for an item. If you need batteries for your flashlight you can get them at the corner store for $2 or drive across town to the Big Box Store and get them for $1.50. The Big Store charges less because they have to. Nobody would drive across town to pay the same money as price as they can get at the corner store.

Film sellers TOTAL profit is the profit per unit sold times the numbers of units sold. If the price per unit gets too high than sales will drop too much and TOTAL profit declines.

One way to get around this problem for sellers is to up the price but also run sales. If you can afford to buy for a high price you will and they will earn a high unit profit. During the sales they will pick up buyers who will not pay the high price (more sales at a lower price).

Rather than complain about the high price perhaps you should lobby for film promotions and sales. This may also get more people shooting.

pdeeh · Mar 27, 2013

Surely the "big box store" charges lower prices is because they can (due to economy of scale & volume purchase), not because they somehow have to.
It's hard to see the analogy with the current film market

noacronym · Mar 27, 2013

I still think if there was some advertising, film would sell. Think about it--people can be advertised into buying ANYTHING. Look at some of the pure-T crap that is sold in the TV commercials. "Just pay separate processing"--how many times have you heard that? And they eat it up like candy. Look at Washington DC. If THAT doesn't prove people can be suckered into buying a load of goods, I don't know what does.

DREW WILEY · Mar 27, 2013

The big box store might or might not be cheaper. Depends what you are actually getting for your money. Chances are, things are cheaper because the quality sucks. And the odds are pretty high that
their cumulative business model is geared to stock market pranks rather than sustainable profit, that
they are twisting just about every labor law imaginable into contortions that would put any small businessman in court, that they are getting huge land or local tax exemptions because they have the money to corrupt local oversight ... and they MANDATE the mfg of trashy outsourced bait-and-switch merchandise to create distribution monopolies, etc etc etc. No, it's not a level playing field by any means. And people like me are going downright nuts because I've got more business than I can handle, and have trouble even getting goods shipped fast enough, specifically because I sell high-end product, and pros have trouble finding that kind of thing elsewhere ... hence, to keep marginally sane, I need these periodic posting breaks...

Brian C. Miller · Mar 27, 2013

noacronym said:
I still think if there was some advertising, film would sell. Think about it--people can be advertised into buying ANYTHING. Look at some of the pure-T crap that is sold in the TV commercials. "Just pay separate processing"--how many times have you heard that? And they eat it up like candy. Look at Washington DC. If THAT doesn't prove people can be suckered into buying a load of goods, I don't know what does.

The base problem with using film these days is that people have to be creative to use it. The average person is not creative or even inquisitive. Thus, it's a bit of an uphill battle just to get them off the couch. There is no Twitter or whatever for film cameras. The only time I've seen an advertisement was for some old stock of point & shoots with prepaid mailers, and the advertisement was aimed at retirees, not cool hipsters.

The best advertising for film is what I did yesterday when I showed a 4x5 slide to some coworkers. Bug eyes and dropped jaws all around.

brianmquinn · Mar 27, 2013

pdeeh said:
Surely the "big box store" charges lower prices is because they can (due to economy of scale & volume purchase), not because they somehow have to.
It's hard to see the analogy with the current film market

Yes they can charge lower prices (due to economy of scale & volume purchase). But they do not charge lower prices to be nice to us. They charge lower prices because if they did not charge lower prices we would never suffer a trip to their crappy stores that are staffed by underpaid know-nothing people. I do not want to say anything bad about the staff that works at the store but they are hired because they will work for low wages. Not because they are skilled. I worked retail for years when I was young and stupid. I worked hard but I was not able to be useful often as I did not know much at the time.

EASmithV · Mar 30, 2013

People have a really hard time believing that all you need to process E6 is a dishtub with holes in the sides, running sink water, a good thermometer, and E6 chems.

Try it. It's not hard, and you will have better-than-lab results.

Roger Cole · Mar 30, 2013

EASmithV said:
People have a really hard time believing that all you need to process E6 is a dishtub with holes in the sides, running sink water, a good thermometer, and E6 chems.

Try it. It's not hard, and you will have better-than-lab results.

Humm, I did lots of it back when I did it using a dishtub with no holes. What are the holes for anyway? I must have been doing it the hard way!

Of course you also need a tank and reel, and bottles for your chemicals.

RattyMouse · Mar 30, 2013

Roger Cole said:
Humm, I did lots of it back when I did it using a dishtub with no holes. What are the holes for anyway? I must have been doing it the hard way!

Of course you also need a tank and reel, and bottles for your chemicals.

I'm guessing here but I think the point is to have the proper temp water coming out of the tap, then with holes in the container, you can constantly stream this water in, keeping the temperature stable.

Where do you buy E6 chemicals? Home processing of E6 does way more for cost reduction than b & w.

brianmquinn · Mar 30, 2013

EASmithV said:
People have a really hard time believing that all you need to process E6 is a dishtub with holes in the sides, running sink water, a good thermometer, and E6 chems.

Try it. It's not hard, and you will have better-than-lab results.

I know it is not too hard but when I shoot 35mm and want mounted slides it is just too easy to pay a lab to do the work and save me the time and effort. With B&W you can alter the developer and technique to get what you want. With E6 all I want is standard development and mounting. As for a good thermometer get a standard oral thermometer from a drug store. They are only a few dollars and are VERY accurate around 100 degrees F. Another thing I have found that works well is a crock pot with a dial temp control. Some of them can hold temp very well when set to the low warm setting. It takes a day of going back and forth with the dial but when you find where to set it just mark that spot and you are set for the future.

Pioneer · Mar 30, 2013

EASmithV said:
People have a really hard time believing that all you need to process E6 is a dishtub with holes in the sides, running sink water, a good thermometer, and E6 chems.

Try it. It's not hard, and you will have better-than-lab results.

Neither E-6, C-41 or RA-4 is very tough to do but when you are living with a septic tank and a well continuously running water is not the best idea. And if you live where your water is metered and you are charged by the gallons you use you can run up quite a bill that way. I personally use a small aquarium pump to recycle my water from a 20 gallon tub, through a heater, and into my washtub...with just one hole that allows water to recycle back to the 20 gallon tank. That also works quite well and is a touch more conservative.

Along with Fuji's price increase was the news....

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