All my papers are suddenly fogged?!

Tried making a print today using Fomatone 131 paper and noticed it was coming out yellow. I tested the paper by developing an unexposed strip in liquidol for 2.5 minutes and fixing out an unexposed strip for comparison. The developed strip came out yellow. I repeated the test in complete darkness to rule out a safelight issue and got the same result

Thinking it was a chemistry issues, I mixed up some fresh developer, stop, and fix. Also scrubbed my trays for good measure. Tested again and got the same problem.

Now thinking it was a paper issue I tried a paper I used a few weeks ago. That one turned a light gray from fog. I then did subsequent tests with other papers that I used recently. Same issues there too!

Now wondering if I have an issue with my bottle of developer I used some rodinal as a makeshift paper developer. That also returned issues from some papers. The effect was diminished but still present in some.

I feel like I'm going crazy! I don't know what is going on. My papers are kept in the original packaging and nothing has disturbed them over the last few weeks. I don't think I have fog from hydrogen sulfide (sepia toning) since a) never had been an issue before b) the plastic in the packaging is air tight when closed.

The fogging is even across the paper and does not show splotches or gradients.

I'm not aware of any possible sources of radiation. My darkroom temperature is warm, but not hot. Nothing new has been introduced to my process. Some of my papers and chemistry are a bit old, but had no issue 2 weeks ago.

I've ordered some fresh Fomatone paper, developer, and fixer to try to rule out the issue. I really hope it's not the paper since that would be a huge loss. I'm going to loose sleep over this mystery.

cirwin2010 said:

Tried making a print today using Fomatone 131 paper and noticed it was coming out yellow. I tested the paper by developing an unexposed strip in liquidol for 2.5 minutes and fixing out an unexposed strip for comparison. The developed strip came out yellow. I repeated the test in complete darkness to rule out a safelight issue and got the same result

Thinking it was a chemistry issues, I mixed up some fresh developer, stop, and fix. Also scrubbed my trays for good measure. Tested again and got the same problem.

Now thinking it was a paper issue I tried a paper I used a few weeks ago. That one turned a light gray from fog. I then did subsequent tests with other papers that I used recently. Same issues there too!

Now wondering if I have an issue with my bottle of developer I used some rodinal as a makeshift paper developer. That also returned issues from some papers. The effect was diminished but still present in some.

I feel like I'm going crazy! I don't know what is going on. My papers are kept in the original packaging and nothing has disturbed them over the last few weeks. I don't think I have fog from hydrogen sulfide (sepia toning) since a) never had been an issue before b) the plastic in the packaging is air tight when closed.

The fogging is even across the paper and does not show splotches or gradients.

I'm not aware of any possible sources of radiation. My darkroom temperature is warm, but not hot. Nothing new has been introduced to my process. Some of my papers and chemistry are a bit old, but had no issue 2 weeks ago.

I've ordered some fresh Fomatone paper, developer, and fixer to try to rule out the issue. I really hope it's not the paper since that would be a huge loss. I'm going to loose sleep over this mystery.

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Make sure you are using a RED safelight only. Foma 131 doesn't take kindly to anything else.

Whoops, missed the part about total darkness.

I recently went around in circles printing some color prints. Don't lose sleep. I would wait for new stocks, try changing 1 thing. IE try old paper with new developer. I would stick to no safelight until some combination yields no yellow.

cirwin2010 said:

Now wondering if I have an issue with my bottle of developer I used some rodinal as a makeshift paper developer. That also returned issues from some papers. The effect was diminished but still present in some.

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So the developer did change something. Did you develop as much with rodinal as with your print developer? I.e. did you determine how long to develop with rodinal to achieve the same degree of development as with your regular print developer, and then process the test strips in that way?
What is your regular print developer?
Can you show some examples of the affected strips? (Not that your description isn't clear - it's very clear indeed, but who knows there's a hint hiding in plain sight somewhere...)

cirwin2010 said:

I don't think I have fog from hydrogen sulfide (sepia toning) since a) never had been an issue before b) the plastic in the packaging is air tight when closed.

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So you do use sodium sulfide toning or other processes in there that release small quantities of hydrogen sulfide?

The Fomatone papers are somewhat yellow when they're unfixed. Try double checking that your fixer is working properly.

khh said:

The Fomatone papers are somewhat yellow when they're unfixed. Try double checking that your fixer is working properly.

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I opened and tested a new bottle of fixer. Didn't mention it in my original post, but I don't think that's it.

koraks said:

So the developer did change something. Did you develop as much with rodinal as with your print developer? I.e. did you determine how long to develop with rodinal to achieve the same degree of development as with your regular print developer, and then process the test strips in that way?
What is your regular print developer?
Can you show some examples of the affected strips? (Not that your description isn't clear - it's very clear indeed, but who knows there's a hint hiding in plain sight somewhere...)



So you do use sodium sulfide toning or other processes in there that release small quantities of hydrogen sulfide?

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Yes and no on the developer. Rodinal struggles to develop highlights on paper so I don't think it shows the fog as easily. But when I tested for fog some of the paper did show yellowing/fog. I developed for the same amount of time as liquidol and exposed a piece under my enlarger as a reference for how long to develop.

I don't feel I can eliminate the developer as the cause til my new bottle of liquidol arrives.

I threw out the test strip unfortunately


I sepia tone using a sodium sulfide bath. It's smelly of course, but never had issues with fog before and the plastic of the paper packages offers pretty good protection. If hydrogen sulfide did leak in there I wouldn't expect an even coating across all sheets, especially the ones in the middle of the package. Also I would think that the dog would show up on fixed only sheets since sulfide "develops" any silver halides in the paper.

Won't know til my new materials arrive sadly

I'm going to double check my basement/darkroom later for possible sources of light I didn't see. Might also leave a test strip out with a coin on it before developing to see if there is a source of uv or something I cannot see that is exposing the paper. Doubtful, but who knows at this point. Just weird this wasn't an issue two weeks ago with the same materials.

cirwin2010 said:

I'm going to double check my basement/darkroom later for possible sources of light I didn't see. Might also leave a test strip out with a coin on it before developing to see if there is a source of uv or something I cannot see that is exposing the paper. Doubtful, but who knows at this point. Just weird this wasn't an issue two weeks ago with the same materials.

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I doubt it is light fogging. To me the yellow colour suggests chemical fogging. For example if you expose a paper and give it only a small amount of development the colour of the developed silver by reflected light is often yellowish. Developer fog could potentially cause this. It would be a strange thing for Liquidol to do that all of a sudden, but is there a way you can test another paper developer (not Rodinal)?

I agree it sounds more like chemical fogging.

cirwin2010 said:

I sepia tone using a sodium sulfide bath. It's smelly of course, but never had issues with fog before and the plastic of the paper packages offers pretty good protection. If hydrogen sulfide did leak in there I wouldn't expect an even coating across all sheets, especially the ones in the middle of the package. Also I would think that the dog would show up on fixed only sheets since sulfide "develops" any silver halides in the paper.

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No, indeed, I'd expect H2S gas to fog the edges of a stack of paper mostly. However, it's very well possible you're struggling with contamination of a vessel with a small amount of sodium sulfide. I sometimes use it, too, but I make sure to rinse everything that has come into contact with it.

Can you possibly get some Ílford RC paper and see what happens with that and your developer and fixer?

pentaxuser

koraks said:

I agree it sounds more like chemical fogging.



No, indeed, I'd expect H2S gas to fog the edges of a stack of paper mostly. However, it's very well possible you're struggling with contamination of a vessel with a small amount of sodium sulfide. I sometimes use it, too, but I make sure to rinse everything that has come into contact with it.

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don't forget thiourea...

Alessandro Serrao said:

don't forget thiourea...

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So just to be clear, are you saying that sepia toning with thiourea does not cause any problems to paper kept in the same room as thiourea based toner?

Thanks

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

are you saying that sepia toning with thiourea does not cause any problems to paper kept in the same room as thiourea based toner?

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I suspect he means to say the opposite.
I'd add that thiourea is easy to rinse off of surfaces and utensils, and since it doesn't generate hydrogen sulfide gas the way sodium sulfide does, it's far less of a concern as it can be more easily controlled.

pentaxuser said:

So just to be clear, are you saying that sepia toning with thiourea does not cause any problems to paper kept in the same room as thiourea based toner?

Thanks

pentaxuser

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Thiourea powder, not thiourea-based liquid toner...

Thanks both but I may be still a little confused. Here's what I think is being said: Thiourea based liquid toner is perfectly safe to use in the same room as paper.

Using thiourea powder to make a liquid toner may be less safe but only if the powder were to be spilled on surfaces and such surfaces were not completely wiped away after making the liquid to prevent any contact between the powder and paper.

An absolute safe way to avoid any contamination would be either to make the liquid in a separate room or do it in a darkroom sink on the "wet side" which is then washed with running water while the paper is stored in its black bags and boxes in a cupboard on the "dry side" of the darkroom

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

I may be still a little confused

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Probably in part because you're trying to find consensus in the words of two people who opine differently on the matter.

Btw, my thiourea came in crystals, not powder. I never take particular precautions when handling it. The Ghost of Fog as so far skipped my front door (knock on wood).

How old is the paper? "a bit old"

It's your Liquidol.

I had the same problem. As the developer ages, and if your fixer is not very fresh, the carried-over developer discolors.

Use fresh everything or switch to a different developer. I switched to home-mixed ID-62 and D-72 and solved the problem that way.

Despite Liquidol's reputation as long-lasting, I found it less than stellar in that regard as well. The discoloration problem made me drop it completely.

Best,

Doremus

Time is valuable. Toss developer and buy fresh. Try new paper.

koraks said:

Probably in part because you're trying to find consensus in the words of two people who opine differently on the matter.

Btw, my thiourea came in crystals, not powder. I never take particular precautions when handling it. The Ghost of Fog as so far skipped my front door (knock on wood).

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Thanks and yes people who opine differently and often at 180 degrees to each other is one of my problems

pentaxuser

I did some testing and I've come to a conclusion. The short answer is it's the developer. But... it seems to be a bit more complicated than that.

The test: I mixed up some more Liquidol from my old bottle (purchased and opened 1.5 years ago) and poured it into a tray. In another tray I poured some brand new Ilford Multigrade developer (what I could get my hands on soonest). I then set up a tray of stop bath and fixer per usual.

I proceeded to cut small strips of various papers and put one into the old Liquidol bath, one into the Ilford Multigrade bath, and one straight into the fix as a reference point. The strips were developed for 3 minutes each.


Observations: As per my previous testing, all the papers showed fog when processed in the Liquidol. Some showed more than others, especially the oldest papers I had (I'll come back to this). The strips processed in the new Ilford Multigrade developer showed only the slightest amount of density over the fixed only strips. I assume this slight amount of density is the base fog of the emulsion. You really have to be looking in bright light to kinda see the difference. There were some exceptions. Some long expired paper fogged in both developers, but the Liquidol showed notably more fog in these cases. Some Foma Retrobrom paper I bought about 1.5 years ago also showed some fog even in the new developer. Either this papers expires early or I'm over developing it for this test.

There was also one other exception to the general observation. The brand new Ilford Multigrade Classic Fiber paper I bought today did NOT show any fog when processed in the Liquidol. It looked exactly the same in both developers. I had some older Ilford Multigrade Classic Fiber paper I bought a while back and that showed some fog in the Liquidol.

Conclusion?: I'm not sure exactly what happened to my Liquodol stock, but this appears to be a compound issue. The old Liquidol developer used with older paper (1.5-3 years old), especially warmtone paper. Maybe some of the anti fogging agents in the stock suddenly went bad or there was some sort of contamination? Regardless, my takeaway is that I need to stop building up a supply a materials if I cannot get through them quickly enought. I don't have a freezer for my paper. I'll also start taking some precautions to protect undeveloped paper from the environment. Maybe store the boxed in an airtight bin or at least switch over to a thiourea sepia toner.

Maybe someone can chime in on how longer paper is good for, especially papers like Fomatone and Retrobrom.

C, was this operation performed in the dark, or was a safelight used?

GregY said:

C, was this operation performed in the dark, or was a safelight used?

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It was performed with safelights on. Previous testing showed that the safelights did not impact anything. I also did another safelight test by leaving a strip of paper out with a coin on it to be exposed by the safelights for 5 minutes. If the shadow from the coin appeared then the safelights were exposing the paper. No such shadow appeared.