Albumen - questions after first print

It's pretty much what I am doing but i still get some bubbles. I don't know where they come from. Maybe it's the air in the surface of the paper that gets pushed out by the albumen as it seeps in.
Maybe I'll try a few drops of darkroom surfactant to see what happens. I figured the first batch of albumen is for coating practicing, so no big deal.

Do you age the albumen? I haven't decided if this reduces bubbles, but it might help. It does seem to give the albumen a more uniform consistency.

It could be the paper, I suppose. I've used a few different kinds, but my normal paper is Strathmore 500 1-ply plate. A heavier paper might not spread as smoothly on the surface of the albumen, and a rougher paper might trap air bubbles, though rougher surfaces are also better at hiding flaws.

It might also be that the bubbles you are seeing aren't a problem. If the bubble is large enough to create an uncoated spot on the paper, then it will show as a flaw, but there might also just be air in the albumen that becomes part of the sheen, or tiny bubbles (with all respects to Bradda' Don, may he rest in peace) that go away as the paper hangs.

I haven't tried things like Photo-Flo in the albumen, but it might not be a bad idea. I know PE uses it to improve coating with gelatin emulsions. Let me know how it works, if you try it.

I just made some albumen so it is not aged. Couldn't wait for it to happen. My next batch is going to be made with egg white powder that I bought from amazon. I am going to make a large batch with the 8oz s that I purchased so that will give me a chance to let it age in the fridge.
I have ordered the Strathmore 500 1-ply plate but it is still on its way . So far I am using Photo Formulary baryta coated paper. It is a little stiff and it curls quite a bit but I like the surface and you can get gloss with the first coating. Will se how that works.
The albumen that I made was quite uniform in consistency. It just felt thick and gooey. I suppose that is the way it needs to be for it to make a good coating. It is just those damn bubbles. They are tiny and I can sometimes make them be outside the printing area but as you can imagine, I want to be able to make a perfect coating, or close enough so you are not distracted by them when looking at a print.
I will also try the puddle and fine comb, just for giggles. Who knows....
I also had the idea of making a coating rod with closet hanging rod and some magnet wire that I got from radio shack. I have three different gauges so it will be fun trying that.

The aged albumen feels a little thinner than fresh albumen. Fresh eggs contain two densities of albumen. Powdered egg white, which is what Daniel Levin uses, is very uniform.

If there is a paper that you would like to try for albumen but it seems to curl somewhat when coated,is there a way to flatten the paper without damaging the albumen?

Albumen paper curls. That is why virtually all albumen prints are mounted to something stiffer.

If it curls in the tray while it's floating in the albumen, just try to keep the corners in contact with albumen without letting albumen get on the back of the paper. You can also leave more of a margin to cut away when it dries.

Steaming the paper before floating it in the silver nitrate keeps the paper pliable and helps reduce curling in the tray.

I haven't tried steaming the paper before floating it in the albumen, but it might help.

bayer bar for headaches?

colivet said:

I just made some albumen so it is not aged. Couldn't wait for it to happen. My next batch is going to be made with egg white powder that I bought from amazon. I am going to make a large batch with the 8oz s that I purchased so that will give me a chance to let it age in the fridge.
I have ordered the Strathmore 500 1-ply plate but it is still on its way . So far I am using Photo Formulary baryta coated paper. It is a little stiff and it curls quite a bit but I like the surface and you can get gloss with the first coating. Will se how that works.
The albumen that I made was quite uniform in consistency. It just felt thick and gooey. I suppose that is the way it needs to be for it to make a good coating. It is just those damn bubbles. They are tiny and I can sometimes make them be outside the printing area but as you can imagine, I want to be able to make a perfect coating, or close enough so you are not distracted by them when looking at a print.
I will also try the puddle and fine comb, just for giggles. Who knows....
I also had the idea of making a coating rod with closet hanging rod and some magnet wire that I got from radio shack. I have three different gauges so it will be fun trying that.

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i recomend metal tubing for a home made bayer bar-wind with solid core copper electrical wire with teflon based insulation-any insulation is good except laquered wire, the laquer will break down in many solvents and/or flake into puddle

comercial rods are ss wrapped with ss

emulsions can be screened onto a support with regular silkscreen equipmnt and technique

a large auto/truck windshieldwiper blade can pull watery senesitzer solutions well

a comb with piece of stiff cardbd taped on with a certain amnt of teeth exposed can 'trowel' a puddle out

1850's comercial papers were not allways floatd=arrowroot was sponged on to paper tacked flat on boards-arrowroot and other starches were often mixed in various proportions with albumin and sponging and wipe techniiques were used

french and german papers were coated with different emulsions and the paper supports were sizd differently than british paper but all were often called 'albumin'

bubble issues were allways there-i think dan is right-the bubbles that you are worried about may not be a problem at all-your albumin is to thick i think

we used to mount 2 sheets of b &w projection photo print paper back to back to solve curling problem-some use this tech and dip into emulsion and then separate after emul sets

commercial albumin paper manufacturers would let frothed egg whites sit 12 of 24 or 48 hrs --and then age and sometimes ferment-sugar was often a part of the formula-they did not have refrigerators and the aging went on at room temp

albumin was made into an emulsion for coating glass plates for camera negs-different than what was used for paper where it was considered a sizing not an emulsion since the photogrpher sensitized the paper when it was to be xposed

vaya con dios

The albumen isn't strictly a sizing, since it contains sodium chloride or ammonium chloride, which combines with the silver nitrate to form silver chloride.

questions of "emulsion"

David A. Goldfarb said:

The albumen isn't strictly a sizing, since it contains sodium chloride or ammonium chloride, which combines with the silver nitrate to form silver chloride.

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very good point dave-

my own personal research in the english language pulbications of the 1800's has confirmed, for me , that albumin as a photo sensitive "emulsion" was first used for glass plate negs-it was superceded by colloidon but there were colloidon/albumin hybreds for glass plates before colloidon won out

albumin as a sizing agent for glossy photo paper was the norm in the trade to continuous tone amatuer photographers for a long time

could it be that over the yrs these different formulations for different purposes have become mixed together without proper antcecents being available so that present day practitioners may be using old formula without knowing what purpose the particular formula was originally designed for and used for?

your extensive experience would make a most important source of input to this, for me, most important question

the fact that sodium salts were present in the alb size that comercial photo papers were made with was one, i believe, af a 'value added' sales factor, at first

i prefer casien myself so my actual hands on with alb disqualifys me from answering this for myself

can you help?

vaya con dios

I haven't read everything, so I'm sure there are a number of different formulas and other uses of albumen that I don't know about, but the ones that I've seen for albumen paper all have a chloride salt and albumen in the paper (sometimes with other additives, like cornstarch for matte albumen prints or a preservative like acetic acid or citric acid), which is sensitized with a silver nitrate solution.

The attraction of this approach seems to be that the salted albumenized paper will last more or less indefinitely, as does the silver nitrate solution until it is combined with the paper, and then the silver nitrate solution can be cleaned with kaolin, decanted, and used again.

One effective method to combat the curl while floating on albumen is to paste or glue two sheets back to back with glue only along the edges. This seals the papers to prevent albumen on the reverse.

Using this method the paper is immersed in the albumen. After drying the edges are cut away and you have two sheets of albumenized paper. I have a much smaller problem with bubbles using this method because the paper is under, not on, the surface.

dipping is good

Jim Noel said:

One effective method to combat the curl while floating on albumen is to paste or glue two sheets back to back with glue only along the edges. This seals the papers to prevent albumen on the reverse.

Using this method the paper is immersed in the albumen. After drying the edges are cut away and you have two sheets of albumenized paper. I have a much smaller problem with bubbles using this method because the paper is under, not on, the surface.

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AMEN

what do you use to glue paper edges?

i use double sticky tape along the edges of 2 glass plates to dip and coat 2 plates at same time

havent had time to test various spray adhesives on flexible supports

i have used spray starch to size, and to glue surfaces-easy to separate

vaya con dios

I have tried using the the home made coating rod but it put way more bubbles than any other method I have tried, so I discarded the it quickly. It occured to me that taping a sheet of paper to a piece of glass slighty bigger than the paper itself would be a best way to do it. So, I tried it first with a piece of wood I had floating around and poured the albumen as if coating a wet plate and then dripped the excess in to the tray. That worked pretty good but I feel inmersion would be even better as I feel that the paper has to be soaked for a couple of minutes before removing from the albumen. That way the surface of the paper pretty much reaches saturation and will stop sucking albumen. Dripping off the emulsion should be easier when the paper stopped drinking the albumen and it should dry perfectly glossy and even.

double sided tape, or Scotch mounting tape, or paste, or glue stick all work. You must be sure there are no gaps.

Jim Noel said:

One effective method to combat the curl while floating on albumen is to paste or glue two sheets back to back with glue only along the edges. This seals the papers to prevent albumen on the reverse.

Using this method the paper is immersed in the albumen. After drying the edges are cut away and you have two sheets of albumenized paper. I have a much smaller problem with bubbles using this method because the paper is under, not on, the surface.

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... Don't cut the edges away until it is sensitized. This floating method works great for sensitizing also.(That's if your using the float method for sensitizing too.)