Airport Screening and Film -Field Results 2007

Joe VanCleave · Mar 2, 2007

"Security Theater"

DeanC said:
...I wish the TSA would learn something from passenger screening in Israel. Stop looking for dangerous things, start looking for dangerous people. Patting down my 62 year old Mother every time she flies because her artificial knees set off the metal detector isn't making anyone safer.

I've learned a good deal about the role psychology plays in the appearance of security by reading Bruce Schneier, who coined the term "security theater", which refers to an overt appearance of security, minus the real meat. See http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0702a.html for an example in his 'Cryptogram' newsletter. He's the author of "Applied Cryptography" and other books on security, and is well respected in most circles, excepting the circles of power that invent new forms of security theater.

jstraw · Mar 2, 2007

The hollow appearance of security reminds of all the managers I've known for whom outward signs of activity were of more importance than the evidence of progress.

davetravis · Mar 2, 2007

bbinboulder,
Welcome to APUG!
Yea, there are some short, and long fuses here, but that's just a reflection of "the real world."
On my recent round trip to Maui, I had my ASA100 Fuji stuff x-rayed as carry-on a total of 4 times.
No fogging, perfect exposures (well, the last was probably my fault,) anyway it's not scientific, but I didn't see any damage. Maybe I should just limit my connecting flights to 1!
DT

nc5p · Mar 2, 2007

If you aren't travelling across the ocean or the whole country, take the train. I just got back from California. It was a great trip, took some Ilford Delta 3200 for night photos. Not a bit of trouble. They don't look at anything, I took along a bunch of tools for my job. It's such a pleasant change to travel with no harassment or searches. By the way, the old train stations are great photo subjects!

reub2000 · Mar 14, 2007

Rules are rules, it doesn't matter how rude a passenger is.

Bandicoot · Apr 5, 2007

bbinboulder said:
All:

I am the poster who started the thread.

[SNIP]

My orginal intent was to bring something constructive to the community based on my recent experience.

[SNIP]

I also (apparently) am using the term TSA inappropriately. What I clearly mean is those persons whom I met at the security areas in airports who scan baggage and enforce the rules. I'm sorry if my miapprehension of that term offended anyone.

[SNIP]

However one thing that has not changed in the last two decades or so are the rules of polite civil discourse. I have to say that I'm offended by the tenor of some of your responses. I may be old school, but if I'd have spoken thus, it would not have gone down well with my parents.

This is my community?

I'm not sure that you necessarily were using the term "TSA" inappropriately. I have encountered (uniformed) TSA staff at Heathrow who were doing additional checks on some flights to the US that happened beyond the usual UK security checks. (The TSA ones were more annoying, the UK ones actually more thorough, on that ocassion, but that is not necessairly always the pattern.) Perhaps it is some of those that were so rude to you who are misinformed...

Personally, I've only once been refused a hand check when I asked for one, and that was a long time ago. I am always polite and I always leave extra time to get through security which means I am able to say that there is no rush and they can do the hand check when they have a moment to spare. Ironically, it may actually help that I carry a lot of film: this makes me look more 'serious'. I also carry my professional membership cards, and once got a hand check only after showing them.

California Sunbounce makes a nice film bag that is printed all over with warnings not to X-ray it, and if I am carrying enough film to warrant it I find that can also be helpful.

I thought your post was interesting and useful.

Cheers,

Peter

k_jupiter · Apr 7, 2007

Well to quote a TSA person, "TSA" stands for "Twits Standing Around". Nothing in their demeanor has changed my mind on that fact. I feel no more safe because they do their job in the manner they do it. Then after reading stories as to the video cameras catching these people stealing from checked luggage, or finding a note in my suitcase telling me they have done a 'personal' search of my checked luggage, when there is nothing incriminating in it besides the alarm clock and electric shaver I carry... I feel much better flying, don't you?

I don't carry high speed film anymore. Who needs the grief?

And you Mr. BBinboulder, you walk into our house, raise crap, and expect all to accept it as if you were a family member. Sorry, life on the net or off doesn't work like that. You can be offended all you want. Establish trust, become a member. Then raise hell all you want.

Don't like it?

leave.

Accept it? stay. Become a member. We accept all here.

tim in san jose (wondering if this post gets him extra scrutiny in the next couple of weeks on his business trips).

copake_ham · Apr 7, 2007

k_jupiter said:
Well to quote a TSA person, "TSA" stands for "Twits Standing Around". Nothing in their demeanor has changed my mind on that fact. I feel no more safe because they do their job in the manner they do it. Then after reading stories as to the video cameras catching these people stealing from checked luggage, or finding a note in my suitcase telling me they have done a 'personal' search of my checked luggage, when there is nothing incriminating in it besides the alarm clock and electric shaver I carry... I feel much better flying, don't you?

I don't carry high speed film anymore. Who needs the grief?

And you Mr. BBinboulder, you walk into our house, raise crap, and expect all to accept it as if you were a family member. Sorry, life on the net or off doesn't work like that. You can be offended all you want. Establish trust, become a member. Then raise hell all you want.

Don't like it?

leave.

Accept it? stay. Become a member. We accept all here.

tim in san jose (wondering if this post gets him extra scrutiny in the next couple of weeks on his business trips).

Wow! Let me guess. You're interviewing to be a "shock jock" on AM radio and figured you could tryout your "schtick" here.

Right?

k_jupiter · Apr 8, 2007

copake_ham said:
Wow! Let me guess. You're interviewing to be a "shock jock" on AM radio and figured you could tryout your "schtick" here.

Right?

Not particularly George. I, of course, have never felt reluctant to express my opinion. I've noticed, neither do you.

tim in san jose

jpeets · Apr 8, 2007

This is a topic that gets heavy discussion, but I do have a specific question for any LF photographers that have recently passed through UK airport security. What were your experiences with carrying sheet film? I'd be happy to have it scanned with my carry on, but I don't want to run into a situation where someone insists that I open a box of sheet film. Anecdotally, this has happened, so should I blow a lot of money and Fedex my film back and forth?

I am travelling soon, so any comments would be very much appreciated!

Jaan

jd callow said:
Gee art where is your faith in humankind? I don't see anything here to make me think he is lying or has some agenda. My travel experiences aren't similar, but it gives me no reason to suspect the OP is lying.
Off of the top of my head...
Heathrow: refused to hand check
Gatwick: refused to hand check
Minsk 2: refused to hand check
Detroit Metro: Mostly hand checked sometimes not
San Fran: hand checked.
Atlanta: ?
Denver: ?
Dallas: Hand Check
SeaTac: Hand Check
LAX: Hand Checked
Ohare: Don't remember, but I believe they scanned at least once.
Vancouver: refused to hand check
Amsterdam: refused to hand check
Bucharest: Waved through (they loved us Yanks)
I've been through the jersey and NYC airports often and always had it scanned, but I don't remember if I ever asked for a hand check.

I believe the only film fogging I ever had was a Minsk>Amsterdam>Ohare>Detroit nightmare where I spent 12 hours in the air over 1 and one half days and had my film scanned at each stop

Ian Grant · Apr 9, 2007

Jaan, I see you quoting JD Callow.

I fly through Gatwick regularly and yes they refuse to hand check film, back in the summer when security was tightened I asked for my film to be hand checked.

Reluctantly I let my film pass through the scanner, however afterwards a very helpful and pleasant security man came and had a chat. He was on a committee with representatives from Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and other parties on the safety of film and airport scanners. All modern airport equipment used for hand luggage is safe, and fine for numerous scans even with fast films, but the scanners used for hold baggage are not.

As for carrying LF film, on Friday I was given a random spot security search at Izmir airport, prior to boarding my plane,this meant opening my hand luggage turning on all electrical equipment to show they functioned, laptop & cameras etc. The box of 5x4 Tmax attracted their interest, and I explained it was film and they were happy to check the box with a metal detector. It was also then scanned again. Everything had already been scanned at check-in.

I must comment that the security staff at Izmir were young, polite and very efficient, on previous trips they've been genuinely interested to find that the unusual object shown by their scanner was a 5x4 Wista.

Ian

jpeets · Apr 9, 2007

Ian,

Thanks, I am heartened.

I'm off to Scotland, so I get to experience Heathrow and Edinburgh airports. Right now, I am leaning towards taking the risk and bringing my film along with me. I have no qualms about having the film scanned with my carry on luggage, so I won't even bother to ask for a hand check.

Worst case scenario, I have to order some 4X5 from London to replace film that didn't make it.

Then again, I'm not sure what will happen at Toronto airport - I have run into some pretty officious security types in Canada who seem to be unaware of the rules about film, and who get their backs up at the least challenge. I had a run in with one screener who would not hand check high speed film, and started grilling me about what I knew about Xrays and security screening and why I was was interested such things - this after a very gentle and polite observation that the film could be affected, and cannot be checked due to high power scans. Geez. I persisted, and eventually asked to speak with her supervisor. After initial refusal, she finally called him over, and he did the check himself.

It's almost enough to stop me from traveling for photography .........

Jaan

gr82bart · May 7, 2007

Just to add to some APUGers anxieties ... Over at the Nikonians we have this laughable (to me) post:

In my "other life" I am an engineer who works for an xray systems manufacturer. Imaging at home, imaging in the work place! In any event, do not believe all the TSA no harm done to film ballyhoo. An airport xray machine, is subject to many variables, most importantly is who and how it has been serviced. Xrays are energy, and energy over time will in a focused enviornment destroy electronics--or render them ineffective. Rate, and dose. In my company we specify to keep the xray controller, generator, and power supply a certain distance from the tube--right there in the warranty and service manuals for all to see. Matter of fact, an xray tube is "desroying (using up?)" it's internal tungsten target when it is in operation. I have passed a radiation survey meter through several airport machines to check them; even though the radiation levels are like .5mr, they fogged film I put through, and it was various ISO's. As far as your electronics are concerned, a checked baggage machine that you would put your gear into is pretty safe for electronics, not the film (in some cases). IF you send your gear as checked baggage, then you may find that there is a whole new deal. These machines can be extremely powerful, and in NO way media friendly. Customs has or soon will be getting machines for cargo search (usually not for airport use but who knows) that are powered by linear accelerated electrons. This, is powerful. Anyway, smart move, have them hand check it all!

Throw it in the machine people. Nothing's gonna happen.

Regards, Art.

colrehogan · May 7, 2007

jpeets said:
This is a topic that gets heavy discussion, but I do have a specific question for any LF photographers that have recently passed through UK airport security. What were your experiences with carrying sheet film? I'd be happy to have it scanned with my carry on, but I don't want to run into a situation where someone insists that I open a box of sheet film. Anecdotally, this has happened, so should I blow a lot of money and Fedex my film back and forth?

I am travelling soon, so any comments would be very much appreciated!

Jaan

I haven't done it yet, but I have considered taking a fogged piece of film with me to prove that film actually exists in sheets (as opposed to 35 mm or 120 rolls) were I to be challenged.

jstraw · May 7, 2007

colrehogan said:
I haven't done it yet, but I have considered taking a fogged piece of film with me to prove that film actually exists in sheets (as opposed to 35 mm or 120 rolls) were I to be challenged.

Someone has experienced skeptisim that sheet film exists?

DBP · May 7, 2007

jstraw said:
Someone has experienced skeptisim that sheet film exists?

I have carried exposed sheet film for explanatory purposes and received a nice thank you from the TSA person for doing so. One thing we tend to forget is that the average citizen under a certain age (~40?) has never seen film that did not come in a cartridge (i.e. 35mm, APS, or 110). So roll film is a novel experience and sheet film a new concept for the average inspector.

I'll admit to having a possibly skewed experience with TSA as I normally fly out of Washington National, which probably has above average staff due to the location.

roteague · May 7, 2007

colrehogan said:
I haven't done it yet, but I have considered taking a fogged piece of film with me to prove that film actually exists in sheets (as opposed to 35 mm or 120 rolls) were I to be challenged.

I do that, as well as take a QuickLoad (expired film) that I am willing to sacrifice. I've never been asked yet, however.

michael9793 · May 7, 2007

I always remove my film from the boxes and place them in baggies. for sheet film I ways ship ahead to my destination unless they are 4x5 T-Max 100 ready loads where they are easily removed for inspection. IF you hand any TSA person a bag of film showing the individual rolls without any covering on them they have never made a big deal over it. You can ask for a supervisor to hand inspect. rules state they must hand inspect upon request. I have never had to go that far. but i have made it very easy for they to see my film and what was in the bag. I don't even keep the ready loads in the box. I put the boxes in my suitecase or camera bag and remove the film prior to inspection and replace them after.

just my experiences

mike

dmr · May 7, 2007

Last week for the first time ever I had an inspector balk at hand inspection. This was at the C terminal at Las Vegas McCarran airport. He first told me that if it's under 800 send it thru the x-ray. I insisted. He then said he would inspect the 800 and to put the rest thru the x-ray. I insisted. I was assertive but polite. He eventually handed my baggie of film to a supervisor who hand checked it like it was no big deal. I did get to see the Nasty Stuff Detector machine operate close up.

pentaxuser · May 7, 2007

bbinboulder. I note that you started this thread which looked promising way back in Feb. You then had to break off when you had whetted my appetite. You then posted again very quickly but didn't continue your report. Clearly you were less than pleased with some of the responses you received. However there are now over 20,000 of us on APUG. By definition the vast majority have not been unwelcoming.

I for one would be interested to see the end of your report. As a UK based subscriber who may need to fly from Heathrow, I am especially interested in the circumstances of the Heathrow situation where despite your politeness you were made to ruin a whole film by exposing it.

I note that you too are a subscriber so presumably you are not someone who intends to be here today and gone tomorrow.

So, to repeat myself, an end to your report would be most welcome.

Thanks

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · May 7, 2007

gr82bart said:
Throw it in the machine people. Nothing's gonna happen.

The I3A scientific data supports your conclusion, Art... except for >800 ASA film.

EDIT:
Read the real story for yourselves: http://www.i3a.org/itip.html

roteague · May 7, 2007

BrianShaw said:
The I3A scientific data supports your conclusion, Art... except for >800 ASA film.

EDIT:
Read the real story for yourselves: http://www.i3a.org/itip.html

Thanks Brian, it gets really old going over this time and time again.

Doremus Scudder · May 12, 2007

Thanks for the I3A link; it is a most informative read.

Notice that they consider safe 1-5 passes through the hand-luggage scanner for COLOR films up to and including ISO800.

However, for BLACK-AND-WHITE films, films over ISO 800, motion picture films and lower speed films that will be subjected to more than 5 scans, they recommend asking for a hand inspection.

Since many of us here shoot black-and-white, and since I have not seen the particular differentiation between color and b&w materials made in the discussion of x-ray scanning on this forum before, I thought I would point this out.

For the full info plus links to the test results, etc., etc., visit the site linked to above.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

www.DoremusScudder.com

gr82bart · May 12, 2007

Doremus Scudder said:
Notice that they consider safe 1-5 passes through the hand-luggage scanner for COLOR films up to and including ISO800.

However, for BLACK-AND-WHITE films, films over ISO 800, motion picture films and lower speed films that will be subjected to more than 5 scans, they recommend asking for a hand inspection.

Since many of us here shoot black-and-white, and since I have not seen the particular differentiation between color and b&w materials made in the discussion of x-ray scanning on this forum before, I thought I would point this out.

Ummm ... read it again.

Regards, Art.

Airport Screening and Film -Field Results 2007

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