Air Purifier vs Ventilation

[Fintan]

Which is best? and Why?

I'm thinking of buying a Filtaire 300 Air purifier and wondering if this is the best way forward.

 

[Pinholemaster]

May I suggest both. Air purifiers are great, but sometimes it's far better to rapidly get rid of the air that is trapped in a darkroom.

 

[JBrunner]

I Have both, the purifier for dust, and ventilation for breathing. I have a big honeywell purifier, but no way could it keep up as far as breathing goes. Even though it has a large CFM rating, it can't "clean" vapors at anywhere near 100%.

 

[raucousimages]

I use both. Two very quiet bathroom fans over the sink to draw air out with a filtered vent at the other end of the room to let air in and an Orec air purifier to clean dust out of the air. If I had to choose one it would be ventelation and just try to keep the dust down. A purifier works on particles and may help with some fumes but the only ones I know of that realy clean everything out of the air are high pressure carbon systems starting at about $4,800.00 for a 1,000 cu/ft room. The purifier is the best thing I did for dust problems but I don't think it helps with chemical fumes.

 

[dancqu]

Which is best? and Why?
...is the best way forward.

An air scrubber. Ever consider that.
Humidity control included. Could be a
good DIY if up to it. Dan

 

[pentaxuser]

It would depend on your darkroom set-up. If it's a converted bedroom or another room with windows and you think you might move at some stage in the future then air vents through walls or even into loft space might give you problems on re-sale or at least expense in restoration to former status.

The alternative might be roller blinds in the window space allowing air from an open window through but not light. This would also allow you to wind up the blind and then tone in daylight with open windows or at least give overnight ventilation as well as making the house's appearance normal.

For rooms with windows, darkroom blinds have a lot going for them. I regret not considering such when I converted a bedroom. My only concern is whether blinds would remain light tight in the long run but I think that if Firstcall in the UK sell them for DIY fitting then they should be up to the job.

Not cheap but cheaper than a new Filtaire 300 unless you have several windows requiring roller blinds.

It all depends on how long you intend being in the room without opening the door and how susceptible you are to "smells"

A professional darkroom worker set-up for 8 hours per day and 5 days a week is totally different from an amateur spending 3-4 hours there with short breaks.

pentaxuser

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

Oddly enough I'm running a test right now. I've got trays of developer, stopper and fixer set up, with an air purifier aimed at them. If after 15 minutes they've still stunk up the room, my parents wont let me print photos in the house anymore.
Being young does have it's downsides, but more on topic, the air purifier seems to be working okay so far. If it can beat the smell of fixer I'm happy, but as other people have said, more is better. Ventilation is a must though for your own health, I'd think.

 

[john_s]

......... If it can beat the smell of fixer I'm happy,.............

There are less smelly alternatives to "normal" acid fixer. Quite a few of us use Kodak Flexicolor Fixer (made primarily for colour, but perfectly good for black and white film and papers.). It has 2 advantages:

1: being less acidic it smells far less,

2: it tends to be cheaper, because of the competition for such products.

There are probably even better formulas that might be at a pH level that is absolutely optimum for minimal odour (probably around pH=7, I would guess) but the Flexicolor is a great improvement over the general "black and white" fixers. Its pH is around 6.5.

 

[Medusa83]

I use this it works like a dream. No smell at all in my darkroom. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...108&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

 

[Alex Bishop-Thorpe]

There are less smelly alternatives to "normal" acid fixer. Quite a few of us use Kodak Flexicolor Fixer (made primarily for colour, but perfectly good for black and white film and papers.). It has 2 advantages:

1: being less acidic it smells far less,

2: it tends to be cheaper, because of the competition for such products.

There are probably even better formulas that might be at a pH level that is absolutely optimum for minimal odour (probably around pH=7, I would guess) but the Flexicolor is a great improvement over the general "black and white" fixers. Its pH is around 6.5.

Thanks for this, I was having trouble explaining exactly why fixer smelled and exactly why it wasn't going to kill anyone. If there's a better smelling alternative I'll look into it after I use up my 5 litres of hypam (free from a helpful APUGer).

But also, I got no lasting smell with the air purifier either. Back to printing for me.

 

[dancqu]

There are less smelly alternatives to "normal" acid fixer.
Quite a few of us use Kodak Flexicolor Fixer ...
Its pH is around 6.5.

Less smelly! There are entirely workable, practical,
inexpensive, alternatives which have no odor at all.
All the usual darkroom processing and then some
can easily be done with NO odors.

Many years ago there was a good reason for odors.
Over the last twenty or thirty years film and paper
emulsions have evolved in such a way that acid
processing is no longer needed.

A neutral to slightly alkaline fix used one-shot with
no need of a stop of any sort, film and paper, works
well for me.

In your situation odorless fumeless processing
is a best alternative. I know where you're
comming from. I've been there. Dan

 

[Early Riser]

I use a high CFM exhaust fan to vent my darkroom, which already gets good air inflow from a filtered central air system, so even with the exhaust fan running I have a slight positive pressure.

To help eliminate dust and gases from accumulating when the darkroom is not in use I use one of these in the darkroom and one in the print/negative archive room which is attached to the darkroom.

http://www.iqair.us/residential/roomairpurifiers/healthproplus.php

 

[Paul.]

I have a small darkroom 10x7 ft in a shed. Have a 4in extractor fan running through light trap with inlet at opposite end of room also running through light trap. seldome use fan unless toneing, selenium etc. do however run de-hunidifier 24x7. I clean occasionaly with a vacuum cleaner. do not have any problems with dust or smells, I do however enjoy the smell of fixer and as no neibours have complained I will not be changeing to oderless chemistary yet.
Regards to all Paul.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Most home air purifiers or scrubbers are not intended for removing the odors of photographic chemicals from air. They are intended to remove particles and smoke from cigarettes and cooking.

The odors we smell from photographic chemicals are gases themselves which require an entirely different type of filter which uses the methods employed in gas masks. These are often removable cardridges of charcoal or the like which adsorb the gas onto the surface.

If you have a scrubber or filter with a cartridge like that, then it will work for photo chemicals.

PE

 

[Fintan]

Thanks for all the replies. This is the device I was looking at.
http://www.firstcall-photographic.c...nd_Blackout/Filtaire_300_Filtration_Unit.html

Any further views on this purifier?

Is "Due to this unique process, there is no need to vent air out of development rooms or to introduce "fresh air" from outside" just marketing speak?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Considering that 50% or more of the chemicals listed at the bottom are technobabble and are not really 'chemicals', I would be very wary of this except it might do a good job with particles.

But if they cannot even name the chemicals correctly, I wonder how they could look them up in a book and test them. Hah.

PE

 

[dr5chrome]

air

haven't posted here in a while.
....it is always best to have fresh air, especially if you are sensitive to the gas generated. We have reversible darkroom fans in case we need either sources of air. We also keep a large hepa Honeywell filter where we mix dry chemicals to catch the stuff that floats in the air.
If you really want to get rid of the smell buy a livingair unit. This eliminates the photo smell entirely! Be sure you buy an adjustable unit so you can control the ozone output, this will chase you out of the room if it is set too high. I dont know the technical jargon, but the ozone attaches to the items floating in the air eliminating the source of the smell.

dw

www.dr5.com

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just be careful with ozone. It itself is quite toxic to human beings, and can damage lungs and promote cancer. Again, something conveniently overlooked by the companies that make these products.

PE

 

[catem]

Fintan,
I have the filtaire unit you are looking at (and got it from firstcall).

It's not like a home purifier in that it is specifically for removing photographic and other industrial fumes as well as keeping temperature/dust levels constant. As I understand it, it's recommended that you do not use it with other ventilation as this counteracts the effect it produces.

I'm very happy with it. It's easily mounted on the wall, and I have it over my sink. I compared selenium toning right by fully open windows, and then in the darkroom with the unit on full, and working in the darkroom was more comfortable (I selenium tone at 1:9 ).

 

[Peter De Smidt]

As other people mentioned, filters are for particles and exhaust fans are for fumes. The exhaust fan is more important, though, since health is more valuable than spotless negatives.

If you build an efficient system, you don't have to spend a lot or move a ton of air. Exhaust the air out from a hood right over (or at the back of) the trays of chemicals. Intake air from near the bottom of the opposite wall, the one behind you when you stand at the sink. This arrangement will draw air up and over the trays, getting rid most of the fumes.

By all means use low odor chemicals. I mix my own ascorbate and phenidone developers, use a citric stop bath, and use rapid fix meant for minilabs withouth adding hardener. Still, sometimes you can't avoid stinkiness, such as if you'd like to try polysulfide toners.

A small HEPA filter is a good investment. I only run mine when I'm not in the darkroom. It helps to keep down dust. Vacuuming regularly with a HEPA vacuum helps as well.

 

[catem]

As other people mentioned, filters are for particles and exhaust fans are for fumes.

The Filtaire unit claims to remove both - see link given by Fintan.

 

[dr5chrome]

ron;

..haven't hear of such a claim. house units are designed to output low volumes of ozone [not the pollution kind]. If you could point out a website that states this, id be interested in seeing it. we have had one in the lab for 9 years. It does a great job of getting rid of some serious smells and keeps dust from even entering the lab. Last i looked, i didn't have lung cancer.. The dog is 13 with no ill effects either. I dont think the EPA would allow such devices sold if they caused cancer.

advise..
dw

www.dr5.com

Just be careful with ozone. It itself is quite toxic to human beings, and can damage lungs and promote cancer. Again, something conveniently overlooked by the companies that make these products.

PE

 

[Peter De Smidt]

I'm glad the that Filtraire units are working for people. I'm sceptical of this type of technology because if I remember correctly, Consumer Reports tested similar types of units and found them to be not very effective. However, personal experience trumps any type of magazine review.

DW, so nothing can be sold that increases the chance of getting cancer?

 

[catem]

I couldn't say whether the unit does all it says it does, but certainly for ordinary use I find it good - and I'm someone who doesn't like the smell of fixer, I used to use odourless but now I don't feel I need to, though I think you have to be careful where you position the unit. I had it free-standing at first and not very near my sink and although the temperature regulation was very good & made for a pleasant working environment, I did notice the smells more than I do now, with it over my sink. I tend to use it on full more than it says you need to (they suggest turning it down after half an hour) which means it may be a bit more expensive than the equivalent to running a 100 watt light bulb that they claim. It's possible I could do with having it on the lower setting more, but it makes me feel better psychologically to give it the odd boost! My selenium test was a bit hit and miss as it depends how much you lean over the trays and how windy it is (for open window), but having the unit on did feel preferable to that at least! Probably better to do it outdoors if possible anyway, but difficult here in the winter!

My decision to try the unit was partly based on the fact that I liked the idea of avoiding putting in a vent which would have been a bit complicated. Filtaire do seem to be a good, reputable Australian company.

 

[Photo Engineer]

A comment about ozone and air 'fresheners'.

Ozone is a known carcinogen and a poison. It can be tolerated at low levels just as hydrogen sulfide or even cyanide can be and it is just like many other toxic chemicals or carcinogens in that we just don't know how bad it is.

Therefore, my comment was fact but not necessarily important unless the person is very concerned about exposure to any carcinogen, especially one taken into the lungs as is cigarette smoke.

So, just take that as a comment.

As for the air filters, people can be convinced that a placebo has cured them, when in fact it has not. I'll take the Consumer Reports study over subjective evaluation and I'll take a good exhaust fan with a charcoal scrubber and precipitron over anything else.

That method, used at Kodak and other chemical companies, sweeps filtered fresh air into the lab and then removes virtually everything from the stale air being swept out including dust and chemical vapors.

PE