Agitation without inversion

Krzys · Aug 11, 2009

Since the beginning I have used the inversion technique for agitation but recently I have noticed that my Krokus tank is starting to leak like crazy and was wondering how effective turning the stick in the center of the tank is for agitation?

I am really clueless on this technique.

BetterSense · Aug 11, 2009

When I used plastic tanks, I always used the washing-machine-twiddle-stick method of agitation. It always worked fine; I always had leaks when I tried to invert my plastic tank.

Ian Grant · Aug 11, 2009

As the last poster says the twidle stick works just as well, in a small tank - one or two spirals..

Ian

Mike Wilde · Aug 11, 2009

It also can do wonders in exteding the life of the developer. I use this when I want to run say 6 rolls of C-41 in my 4 reel tank. I mix c-41 1L at a time, and I usually consider it good for up to 12 rolls if they are all processed soon after the ingredients are mixed, but it does not keep well past two weeks, particularly if a few rolls were processed in it when it was first mixed.

It does oxidize quickly to aerial exposure. So just spinning means that I can run three reels, re-bottle the develper, and then run the second batch of three reels.

I have tried using it with inversion agitaion in a apaterson tank, and it is oxidised off after the first round of films.

srs5694 · Aug 11, 2009

My own experience is that it can work, but I have trouble sometimes getting an agitation pattern that's right -- it's easy to get underdevelopment or streaks on negatives if you agitate too little, too much, or otherwise wrong. I recommend you set aside a few test rolls to see how it works for you. Include a range of films that require different development times.

Herzeleid · Aug 11, 2009

I always have dark edges on my negatives with the twiddle stick in AP and Paterson tanks. I tried slow, fast, right, left both ways. I never use it to agitate except initial agitation, stop and fix steps..

Anthony Sanson · Aug 11, 2009

If you want anti-anal results..this should work.

Hello, I would suggest trying this technique. I can't give you any exact zone system answer that will give you high-light and shadow retention...but, will work fine.

Keep you tank on the counter and move it in a continuos figure eight pattern. It also would be OK to use a figure nine, three, or four. If you use a figure one or two pattern,be sure to turn your tank clock-wise a quarter turn each time you move back and forth. Do this motion for the entire time. If you think it is to much agitation...pause- breath- relax and continue when you feel it is appropriate. and Yes, you can read a little humor in this post.....the idea is to slosh around the developer. Ofcourse, none of us real photographers would ever think of doing this approach..much toooo unpredictable. ;~))

Have fun, good luck!...let us all know how it all turns out.

Anthony

oscroft · Aug 11, 2009

I've always used the twiddle stick, and never had any problems developing up to 5 rolls in a tank.

Sirius Glass · Aug 11, 2009

oscroft said:
I've always used the twiddle stick, and never had any problems developing up to 5 rolls in a tank.

Ditto. If there is a center post on a plastic tank, use it rather than invert the tank. That is what it is there for.

Steve

archphoto · Aug 11, 2009

Same here when I use plastic. Never thought of inversion with those tanks......

Peter

Krzys · Aug 11, 2009

So what pattern should I follow? How many tunes of the stick how often?

I normally do 1 minute of inversions then 5 for 10 seconds every minute.

DLM · Aug 11, 2009

In something I read, I think it was a document from Ilford about doing B&W film, they recommend something like sliding the tank forward 10 inches and back quickly, about a second there and back. I did that for a while, just do it same amount of times that you would have inverted, and it worked just fine.

Sirius Glass · Aug 11, 2009

Krzys said:
So what pattern should I follow? How many tunes of the stick how often?

I normally do 1 minute of inversions then 5 for 10 seconds every minute.

IIRC two or three rotations every 30 seconds.

Steve

Kevin Caulfield · Aug 11, 2009

Some people don't want to invert their Paterson type tanks because they THINK they leak, but some people also don't realise that Paterson tanks need to be "burped". To "burp" a tank, while you lift up an edge of the closed lid, you press down on the centre of the lid, thereby expelling air or "burping" the tank.

Also, from a physics point of view, think about inversion in comparison with twiddling. Twiddling gives a mainly two dimensional agitation pattern, whilst inversion gives a three dimensional agitation, especially if combined with a toroidal twist.

fotch · Aug 11, 2009

Kevin Caulfield said:
Some people don't want to invert their Paterson type tanks because they THINK they leak, but some people also don't realise that Paterson tanks need to be "burped". To "burp" a tank, while you lift up an edge of the closed lid, you press down on the centre of the lid, thereby expelling air or "burping" the tank.

Also, from a physics point of view, think about inversion in comparison with twiddling. Twiddling gives a mainly two dimensional agitation pattern, whilst inversion gives a three dimensional agitation, especially if combined with a toroidal twist.

May be true, however, I cannot tell the difference in looking at old negatives. I have used the the rotation stick, the inversion, and the rotary processor. So it does not matter, use what is appropriate to the tank you like to use. JMO

fschifano · Aug 11, 2009

I use the stick all the time with my smaller plastic tanks and it works just fine. Five or six complete and very vigorous back and forth motions for 5 seconds every 30 does the trick for me. But, as Ian Grant pointed out and as I've learned myself, this works well with the smaller tanks that hold only 2 35mm sized reels. I've tried it with a larger plastic tank holding 3 x 120 reels and development wasn't quite even. It takes a lot more force to get all that volume of developer moving.

Krzys · Aug 12, 2009

I should still whack the tank against the counter to dislodge any bubbles yes?

dancqu · Aug 12, 2009

Lift and Lower

Perhaps the method has been mentioned.
Conducted in total darkness a rod is used
to lift then lower a or a few reels.

I've used lift and lower with sheet films
when tank developing. Sheets are
handled one at a time. Dan

Larry.Manuel · Aug 12, 2009

My method of twirling: two twirls in one direction in 5 seconds, then the same in the opposite direction in the next 5 seconds. Each twirl is as much rotation as I can manage comfortably with my thumb and forefinger. I equate this with one inversion. My films have always been developed evenly when using this method. Tap the tank? Yes, I do that, but only during the first minute. And only gently.

hoffy · Aug 12, 2009

Man, I was always under the impression that the spin agitation was the least preferred option. I use a plastic tank and invert. The only time when I get a leak is usually on the last inversion set as I probably have already started to slide the cap partially up.

Sirius Glass · Aug 12, 2009

Krzys said:
I should still whack the tank against the counter to dislodge any bubbles yes?

Yes

Steve

marco.taje · Aug 12, 2009

Here's another stick user.
I use inversion on my slightly leaking paterson tank only during the "Ilford" wash sequence. Development and the rest are done with stick rotation. Personally I keep the same scheme as recommended by film makers, i.e. 10 secs every minute with tapping after each cycle, and my negatives look fine. I've tuned dev times with this method, so I don't know if there's any little difference with the inversion method. But surely it IS possible to get good negs for your workflow.

fschifano · Aug 12, 2009

I think Ilford recommends 10 seconds each minute. The Kodak tech sheets almost invariably recommend 5 seconds each 30 seconds. I've done it both ways. Does it make a lot of difference? Not really once you've got things dialed in to your preference. My own admittedly anecdotal observations show that the negatives print about the same.

WolfTales · Aug 12, 2009

Burping... twirling... twiddling... tapping... whacking...

This is just rich!

Sirius Glass · Aug 12, 2009

Of course, following the directions that came with the tank would be ideal,

IF the directions came with the tank originally [not always the case]

ELSE IF we got the directions when we were given [or bought used] the tank.

But frankly, most of us never saw the instructions for any tank - plastic or steel.

Steve

Agitation without inversion

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