Agitation Bubble-Trouble

[Rick Olson]

Hello,

I was developing some Ilford HP-5 and Arista Ultra 400 film (120 size) today and had an issue with uneven development. My equipment is a Paterson tank that allows use of two 120 plastic reels. I noticed thin bands of uneven development (thinner) along the entire length of the film that would be upright when loaded on the reels in the tank. Both the Ilford and Arista had these marks.

Process:
6 minute pre-soak (water)
12 minutes developer (Pyrocat-HD - 1000 ml (500 ml per 120 roll))
1 minute water stop
4 minutes fix
wash, photo-flo, dry

My reasoning was that this might be caused by the large amount of foam I saw once I started development and checked, which might be lodged in the reels during the agitation stage, then stuck between the film emulsion and reel when returned upright.

To test, I shot two of the exact same types film and instead of just using a static water pre-soak, I agitated and made 3 rinses to remove as much of the foam residue as possible. I processed as noted above and finished fixing, then inspected. Same problem!!

Can this be resolved by using more developer? Perhaps, reducing the amount of chemical inversion activity that might be causing the formation of foam and bubbles. What about introducing an anti-foam agent during the pre-soak before development? Is there such a thing?

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

You may have (dried) photo-flo residue on your developing reels and/or tank. Try scrubbing the reels and tank with a soft bristle tooth brush and warm water. Follow with a warm water soak and see if you can generate any foam.

What about introducing an anti-foam agent during the pre-soak before development? Not a good idea.


IMO, you need to get rid of the foam source. Photo-flo residue on developing equipment is a fairly common problem.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I am not familiar with Pyrocat, but it might be worth trying to ditch the water presoak. Some film+dev combinations do not like presoak. I've had that problem with tri-x and XTOL, then I dropped the presoak and didn't have that again.

 

[fatboy22]

I have been shooting the Arista Ultra a lot lately and have had excellent results but I use metal nikkor or Hewes reels. You might try metal reels, you will get much better chemical flow through your film and even development. They do take a while to get use to loading them but well worth it. I don't presoak before development either but that is a personal choice, never found I needed it.

Jamie

 

[Rick Olson]

You may have (dried) photo-flo residue on your developing reels and/or tank. Try scrubbing the reels and tank with a soft bristle tooth brush and warm water. Follow with a warm water soak and see if you can generate any foam.

What about introducing an anti-foam agent during the pre-soak before development? Not a good idea.


IMO, you need to get rid of the foam source. Photo-flo residue on developing equipment is a fairly common problem.

Tom ... Thanks for the response. I have heard of that problem with Photoflo. After each developing session, I use a small toothbrush and hot water to clean my reels. I then put the reels in a tank with water, close and agitate to make sure there is no foam, then dry.

Rick

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I am not familiar with Pyrocat, but it might be worth trying to ditch the water presoak. Some film+dev combinations do not like presoak. I've had that problem with tri-x and XTOL, then I dropped the presoak and didn't have that again.

I do develop with Pyrocat-HD (and Pyrocat-P) and I always presoak with deionized water with all the different films I use - (for 2+ years) with Zero Problems

Presoaking with Pyrocat is recommended by Sandy King.

 

[NikoSperi]

What about the sharp rap of the tank against the sink after each agitation cycle to dislodge those bubbles trapped under the reel apron?

 

[Huub S]

My equipment is a Paterson tank that allows use of two 120 plastic reels. I noticed thin bands of uneven development (thinner) along the entire length of the film that would be upright when loaded on the reels in the tank. Both the Ilford and Arista had these marks.

By your discription i conclude that you use a 1 L Paterson tank with two reels in it, put in the 120/220 format. If not, your problem could have a mechanical cause. The Paterson reels have the bad habit of moving upward during the development process. You have to make absolutely sure the cant move upward, either with a rubber band wound around the centre column, a special clip device, or by using two reels in 120 format.

Huub

 

[timeUnit]

I've had these issues in the past, and found that it was due my agitation pattern. When developing two or more 120-films in the same tank, it is very important that agitation is "random" and sufficient. My theory is that due to the "stopping power" of two loaded plastic reels, the developer is more prone to "stand still" in the tank, even if one inverts the tank. When I discovered this problem, I got a tip at photo.net to agitate differently.

This is how I agitate:
Start with the tank in vertical position. Tilt the tank to the right, so that it reaches horisontal position, then bring it back up to vertical. At the end of the movement, give the tank a circular "shake" to create a "whirlwind" in the developer. Tilt the tank to the left to horisontal, bring it back up, do the whirlwind motion. Repeat until the agitation time is up. Be sure to "rap tha tank" at the end. All this is done with a bit of speed and force so that the developer really moves around in the tank.

Since I started this pattern, I've had none of these issues.

Hope this helps.

 

[Shmoo]

You might try putting your Photo Flo solution in a large container (Tupperware, Gladware, etc.) and taking your film off the reel and putting it in the container, avoiding the solution on you reel/tank to begin with. The film will fall into a soft coil in the container so you can soak it easily.

 

[Jim Noel]

As someone else said, "if your reels have been in Photoflo, clean them well and then rinse them in hot water."

Then, switch to LFN and use it on the film off the reels.

Photoflo adheres to plastic and stainless reels and frequently causes overdevelopment along the edges as it becomes a catalyst.

LFN is not as bad about this, but it is still a good idea to keep it off the reels. Since it is difficult to make LFN foam, your problems should be resolved.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

May I add, especially to people new to developing film, IMHO, I feel that the slight rap of the tank against the side of the sink is not enough. I have tried this method and have had the dreaded air bubble problem.

After each agitation, I hold the bottom of the tank and do four reasonably hard slams on the work surface, concentrating on the tank hitting the surface flat, and then follow by one final harder slam.

I have never had an air bubble since ( or any light leak due to tank damage )

I hope this helps someone

Stoo