Agitating too much ? 35mm in small tank

lhalcong · Feb 4, 2014

How do I know if I am agitating too much ? As opposed to reducing developing time . For instance , while I turn my Patterson tank , it takes a good 10 second for the liquid to completely settle then I tap to release bubbles and then move back into the water bath to keep temperature stable at 68F. That's another 5 sec. So actually leaving only 15sec or less standing in the developer. I am processing using kodak specifications; rotate tank 180degrees twice every 30 sec cycle in small Patterson tank. I'm using D-76 1:1

MattKing · Feb 4, 2014

lhalcong said:
How do I know if I am agitating too much ? As opposed to reducing developing time . For instance , while I turn my Patterson tank , it takes a good 10 second for the liquid to completely settle then I tap to release bubbles and then move back into the water bath to keep temperature stable at 68F. That's another 5 sec. So actually leaving only 15sec or less standing in the developer. I am processing using kodak specifications; rotate tank 180degrees twice every 30 sec cycle in small Patterson tank. I'm using D-76 1:1

Don't bother waiting for the liquid to settle.

For me, the best way to ensure the combination of inversion and rotation is correct is to hold each end of the tank in your hands and turn the entire package over twice - left hand goes from top to bottom while right hand goes from bottom to top each time. You will find that your wrists automatically add the rotation.

chip j · Feb 4, 2014

Vary your agitation patterns.

gone · Feb 4, 2014

Sounds good to me. 2 twisty, GENTLE, inversions every 30 seconds, and none the last minute. Yes, vary which way you twist it each time, but in the instances when I've forgotten to do that, everything turned out fine. The key, for me anyway, is to keep the inversions gentle. I do give the tank a good, strong rap on the counter every other inversion and have no issues w/ bubbles on the negs.

cjbecker · Feb 4, 2014

I just did a test about how agitation affects your negative. I will print them tomorrow and post the results. It will be very interesting and I think it will help out a lot of people. 4 different agitation methods on the exact same image.

lhalcong · Feb 5, 2014

cjbecker said:
I just did a test about how agitation affects your negative. I will print them tomorrow and post the results. It will be very interesting and I think it will help out a lot of people. 4 different agitation methods on the exact same image.

Awesome. I'd like to see your results. In my case no agitation reduced contrast by aprox. one zone while continuos agitation test increased contrast by same amount. That is, about a zone as well. My negatives need more exposure after measuring zone I at 0.05 but zones V and above are about fine. So since I'm processing at kodak specified time and getting good result, I was wondering if I increase the exposure but reduce agitation instead of varying the time . Would that be ok ? Or I should reduce the time ?

dorff · Feb 5, 2014

lhalcong said:
Awesome. I'd like to see your results. In my case no agitation reduced contrast by aprox. one zone while continuos agitation test increased contrast by same amount. That is, about a zone as well. My negatives need more exposure after measuring zone I at 0.05 but zones V and above are about fine. So since I'm processing at kodak specified time and getting good result, I was wondering if I increase the exposure but reduce agitation instead of varying the time . Would that be ok ? Or I should reduce the time ?

I am not sure I understand what you want to achieve. The normal developing time is given with the assumption that agitation is 30 sec continuous, then 10 sec of every minute thereafter. That should give you a very good result with D76. What about your results is bothering you?

As an aside: If you use twirl agitation, there is no need for thwacking the bottom of the tank after agitation, as no bubbles can form that way. It is only necessary after pouring in the developer. If you can, move away from twirl agitation, and rather use the inversion method. Do the inversion GENTLY, and don't follow the same angle every time, i.e. rotate the tank a bit with every inversion. Keep it short and sweet, and err on the side of less rather than more.

EDIT: Lost in translation, sorry. I understand that you do inversion, not twirl, so ignore most of the above. The bit about doing it GENTLY is very important, though. Shaking of any sort is bad.

bvy · Feb 5, 2014

A slight digression, but I've always wondered about the prescribed "tap" to release the air bubbles -- especially in a Paterson tank. If your agitation involve inverting the tank (i.e. turning it over), then it takes several seconds for the developer to drain back through the funnel and into the tank. It seems like the tap shouldn't happen until several seconds after the last inversion, but all the instructions and advice I've ever read call for the tap immediately after the last inversion.

jstout · Feb 5, 2014

every 30

If you don't mind me jumping in here, could I ask for clarification on a minor point? When it is said "every 30 seconds", are we talking about the sweep second hand being on the 12 and then at the 6, or setting a timer to go off after 30 seconds, then agitate?

If agitation is done on the 12 and 6 , the result is 20 agitations in a 10 minute period, for example, and if agitating for 10 seconds each time this results in 200 seconds of agitation during the 10 minute developing period, or in other words, agitation would be taking place 20 seconds out of every minute, basically one third of the time (200 seconds out of 600 seconds). Just using some round numbers here as an example.

The other method of "After" 30 seconds gives far less agitation for the 10 minute period. In this case, each subsequent one starts 30 seconds after the 10 second agitation is complete, and so on. Any other numbers plugged in will not change the question.

This was pointed out to me by a knowledgable person, and I've been wondering about this when I read of agitation methods. He pointed out the potential to over agitate the film. Is there a standard meaning for "every 30 seconds"? I don't think I've see it in my reading. He explained to me I should wait 30 seconds, then agitate.

Thanks for any clarification. If this is totally obvious and dumb, I apologize in advance for interupting.
Jeff

momus said:
Sounds good to me. 2 twisty, GENTLE, inversions every 30 seconds, and none the last minute. Yes, vary which way you twist it each time, but in the instances when I've forgotten to do that, everything turned out fine. The key, for me anyway, is to keep the inversions gentle. I do give the tank a good, strong rap on the counter every other inversion and have no issues w/ bubbles on the negs.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 5, 2014

Here's how one very successful photographer does it, Chris Faust.

http://www.mnoriginal.org/episode/3...rl-and-emilie-flink-vocalessence/chris-faust/

Richard S. (rich815) · Feb 5, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Here's how one very successful photographer does it, Chris Faust.

http://www.mnoriginal.org/episode/3...rl-and-emilie-flink-vocalessence/chris-faust/

I use that same camera bag as he does!

Kidding aside, great video. Thanks for the link Thomas.

Ric Johnson · Feb 5, 2014

I agitate by moving my tank in a figure 8 action 3 times, hit the bottom of the tank on the sink and if there is any bubbles they will rise to the top.

Terry Christian · Feb 5, 2014

In any case, the idea is to get fresh developer moving across the film randomly, gently replenishing it as it exhausts -- not to make yourself a cocktail!

cliveh · Feb 5, 2014

As Dorff mentions the normal developing time is given with the assumption that agitation is 30 sec continuous, then 10 sec of every minute thereafter.

As an aside, do you need to put the tank in a water bath if your D76 at 1:1 is the temperature you require when mixed?

Europan · Feb 5, 2014

To process an elongated strip of film in a spiral reel in closely nesting tanks is not very clever. Its almost impossible to achieve the right flowing of the liquid around the film. My experience is from movie films in spirals, and the best way is to have a container thats about double the reels diameter. Depth or height is secondary although a higher trough allows you to have more bath.

The single biggest advantage of open baths and film in spirals is that the best film-surface-to-bath-volume ratio can be had. So in order to expose, say, half a square metre of film surface to ten litres of bath we can find the container that fits best our reel. Agitation will be made by hand. We hold the reel with the hands in rubber gloves and move it in a way that provokes a constant flow of bath through the windings.

Its totally different from the well-known daylight tanks with light trap and lid. Its you and the film on a dive. I always image to be there with it under water. With constant agitation you can shorten developing time by about a quarter. In my eyes most films are underdeveloped, agitation-wise.

cliveh · Feb 5, 2014

Europan said:
To process an elongated strip of film in a spiral reel in closely nesting tanks is not very clever. Its almost impossible to achieve the right flowing of the liquid around the film. My experience is from movie films in spirals, and the best way is to have a container thats about double the reels diameter. Depth or height is secondary although a higher trough allows you to have more bath.

The single biggest advantage of open baths and film in spirals is that the best film-surface-to-bath-volume ratio can be had. So in order to expose, say, half a square metre of film surface to ten litres of bath we can find the container that fits best our reel. Agitation will be made by hand. We hold the reel with the hands in rubber gloves and move it in a way that provokes a constant flow of bath through the windings.

Its totally different from the well-known daylight tanks with light trap and lid. Its you and the film on a dive. I always image to be there with it under water. With constant agitation you can shorten developing time by about a quarter. In my eyes most films are underdeveloped, agitation-wise.

I find the most effective method is to use the hot-tub technique. This involves wearing a frogmans outfit and jumping into a tub of D76 in total darkness. While holding the spiral with film between your knees, continued swimming for the development period ensures perfect flow of fresh developer over the film.

Richard S. (rich815) · Feb 5, 2014

cliveh said:
I find the most effective method is to use the hot-tub technique. This involves wearing a frogmans outfit and jumping into a tub of D76 in total darkness. While holding the spiral with film between your knees, continued swimming for the development period ensures perfect flow of fresh developer over the film.

I have got to try this.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 5, 2014

cliveh said:
I find the most effective method is to use the hot-tub technique. This involves wearing a frogmans outfit and jumping into a tub of D76 in total darkness. While holding the spiral with film between your knees, continued swimming for the development period ensures perfect flow of fresh developer over the film.

That sounds like an incredibly simple and reasonable process. Thanks for sharing! Like Richard I will have to give this a try.

baachitraka · Feb 5, 2014

Why worry, you may get nice contrasty prints if you agitate more that required.

lhalcong · Feb 5, 2014

cliveh said:
As an aside, do you need to put the tank in a water bath if your D76 at 1:1 is the temperature you require when mixed?

I live in South Florida. Room Temp is 74F at best. To keep house at 68F , A/C would have to run non-stop....

lhalcong · Feb 5, 2014

cliveh said:
As an aside, do you need to put the tank in a water bath if your D76 at 1:1 is the temperature you require when mixed?

I live in South Florida, Room Temp is 74F at best. To keep house at 68F , A/C would have to run non-stop.... , I guess I could standarize at 75F , but I've done a lot of measuring at 68F already, I would have to start from scratch.

cliveh · Feb 5, 2014

lhalcong said:
I live in South Florida. Room Temp is 74F at best. To keep house at 68F , A/C would have to run non-stop....

Point taken, but how much would the temperature rise inside the tank during the duration of the development? Probably a compensation of one degree under would level this out.

lhalcong · Feb 5, 2014

cliveh said:
Point taken, but how much would the temperature rise inside the tank during the duration of the development? Probably a compensation of one degree under would level this out.

it rises about 2 to 4 degrees or anywhere in between depending on what the wife does with the thermostat on that specific day. that's a variable I cannot control... LOL

MattKing · Feb 5, 2014

lhalcong said:
I live in South Florida, Room Temp is 74F at best. To keep house at 68F , A/C would have to run non-stop.... , I guess I could standarize at 75F , but I've done a lot of measuring at 68F already, I would have to start from scratch.

There are significant benefits to working at room temperature for all your solutions - it will be worth your while to standardize at 75F.

cjbecker · Feb 8, 2014

Finished printing my test of how agitation affects the neg. As one would expect, less agitation retains more highlights, and an over all less developed. More agitation = more development and brighter highlights but less detail.

There is an overall affect but agitation mostly affects the highlights.

The film was tri-x 400 at 320. Developed in hc-110 b for 7:30

Cut the film into 4 sections.

1. agitation the whole time. figure 8 method.

2. first 15 seconds then 5 seconds at 00 and 30

3. first 15 seconds then 5 seconds every 2 mins at the top of min

4. first 15 seconds then 5 seconds at 4:00 mins

In order to make the prints have a similar dmax the prints were printed at f16 and grade 3

1. 37 seconds (agitation the whole time. figure 8 method)

2. 26 seconds (first 15 seconds then 5 seconds at 00 and 30)

3. 25 seconds (first 15 seconds then 5 seconds every 2 mins at the top of min)

4. 20 seconds (first 15 seconds then 5 seconds at 4:00 mins)

Once printed at a simular dmax the only difference was the highlight detail, and brightness.

Agitating too much ? 35mm in small tank

lhalcong

MattKing

Moderator

chip j

gone

cjbecker

lhalcong

dorff

bvy

jstout

Thomas Bertilsson

Richard S. (rich815)

Ric Johnson

Terry Christian

cliveh

Europan

cliveh

Richard S. (rich815)

Thomas Bertilsson

baachitraka

lhalcong

lhalcong

cliveh

lhalcong

MattKing

Moderator

cjbecker

Agitating too much ? 35mm in small tank

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency