Agitating Prints

albada · Aug 10, 2022

Ansel Adams wrote in The Print:

"I prefer to agitate by carefully lifting the print out of the solution and turning it over. [...] Single prints should be turned over periodically, but rocking the tray will suffice for part of the agitation."

(Page 75 of Series 3 edition).
I thought rocking was most popular, but AA implies that turning the print over regularly is better. I either rock the tray or swirl the solution around with my fingers with the print on the bottom, face-up. Here's an old thread on this subject: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/agitation-during-paper-development.44242/

How do you agitate? What method do you think results in most uniform development?

Mark Overton

Rick A · Aug 10, 2022

Agitate? I might bump the tray once in a while, but not constant agitation. I do however make sure the print is fully submerged and rock the tray for a few seconds.

MattKing · Aug 10, 2022

Face down first, followed by continuous agitation for at least 30 seconds.
Followed by turning the print face up, and lifting and lowering alternate corners of the tray for most of the rest of the processing stage.
I do the same for stop bath and fixer, except the stop bath time is quite short.

Paul Howell · Aug 10, 2022

As I work in a small space built out in a 2 sink bath even with my safelight point up towards the ceiling to minimize the possibility of safelight fogging I develop face down in the tray. With RC at a minute in the "soup" I submerge the print, lift it out for a second to make sure there is an a bubble dunk back in and agitate until time is up. For FB with time the the soup ranging from 2 to 3 minutes depending on band and developer I submerge the pull back out and resubmerge and rock the tray back fourth while every 30 seconds or so pulling the print out and letting it drain then back in the soup. Not sure why or how I learned this system, likely in college. What I don't do is try to evaluate the print until the white light is one and the print is dry.

ic-racer · Aug 10, 2022

I just finished a printing session and was commenting to myself how convenient all theses years the fixer tray almost always winds up over a seam, so it rocks back and forth. This is the one I'm most concerned with, since the fix time is only 1 minute, I do use a constant agitation for the entire one minute. Since I use the fixer one-shot per printing session, I use a smaller volume in that tray usually, so more important to make sure the whole print is fixed.

I don't do the same constant agitation in the developer. Why? When I used to develop 8x10 negatives in a tray, constant agitation gave uneven development with excess development at the edges and not as much in the middle. Paper probably responds the same way, so I 'periodically' lift and turn the print in the developer. Kind of like a 'semi-stand' development, to make sure the middle gets fully developed at the same time as the edges.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 10, 2022

I teach my students to "belly flop" the (RC) print into the developer, face down.. agitate for 10s, then flip over, followed by gentle agitation for the duration. Same with the stop, same with the fix.
When I work with fibre-based papers, it's kind of the same, except I pull the print out and flip over every 15 seconds, with constant, gentle agitation. I usually develop for 3 minutes.

albada · Aug 10, 2022

MattKing said:
Face down first, followed by continuous agitation for at least 30 seconds.

Two other posters also referred to "continuous agitation."
How is this continuous agitation done?

Paul Howell · Aug 10, 2022

I rock my trays back and forth, other use a pair of tongs to hold the print by the edge and move the print back and forth. I have not used Ansco 120 in years, but I recall that the directions recommend 30 seconds of agitated the gently rocking the tray back and forth very 20 or so second?

MattKing · Aug 10, 2022

albada said:
How is this continuous agitation done?

Depends on my mood
It also depends on the size of the tray, the amount of liquid in the tray and the size of the print.
Sometimes I'll rock the tray. Sometimes I'll use tongs against the edge of the print to move the print in the liquid, and sometimes I'll use my gloved hand to move the print in the liquid.
The critical thing to ensure is that there are no bubbles keeping the developer away from the print, and that the developer is in motion on the print.

pentaxuser · Aug 10, 2022

What's the advantage of initial face-down agitation? All I can think of is avoidance of light from the safelight for the first 30 secs but if the safelight is safe then this won't matter and if it is not safe then the remaining time will still be enough to affect the print, won't it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

RalphLambrecht · Aug 10, 2022

albada said:
Ansel Adams wrote in The Print:

"I prefer to agitate by carefully lifting the print out of the solution and turning it over. [...] Single prints should be turned over periodically, but rocking the tray will suffice for part of the agitation."

(Page 75 of Series 3 edition).
I thought rocking was most popular, but AA implies that turning the print over regularly is better. I either rock the tray or swirl the solution around with my fingers with the print on the bottom, face-up. Here's an old thread on this subject: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/agitation-during-paper-development.44242/

How do you agitate? What method do you think results in most uniform development?

Mark Overton

I'm rocking the tray ever since I stated darkroom work and it works erfectly even.

MattKing · Aug 10, 2022

pentaxuser said:
What's the advantage of initial face-down agitation? All I can think of is avoidance of light from the safelight for the first 30 secs but if the safelight is safe then this won't matter and if it is not safe then the remaining time will still be enough to affect the print, won't it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

If you start face down, the print is right side up after you flip it over, so you get more time to watch the most interesting stuff.
That and it just seems easier to reliably ensure the image side is fully immersed if you start out with the print face down.

Don_ih · Aug 10, 2022

Pulling the print out and flopping it around just unnecessarily adds more air to the developer - but I doubt it matters. Just slide the print in and rock the tray a little to get the developer to move. Then the print develops evenly.

gone · Aug 11, 2022

I agitate the print constantly in the fixer w/ tongs, and usually don't flip it. In the developer, it's more a matter of pushing the print down now and then to expose it to fresh developer. The print's not in the stop bath long enough to agitate.

My concern about flipping the print in the developer is twofold: it's another opportunity for a chemical spill, and the less I handle the print, the less chance of it being damaged.

Sirius Glass · Aug 11, 2022

I start by putting the print in face down and either rock it or bump the edges to make the print move around. After a minute I turn it over and continue to rock or bump the edges.

albada · Aug 11, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I start by putting the print in face down and either rock it or bump the edges to make the print move around. After a minute I turn it over and continue to rock or bump the edges.

Posted advantages to starting face-down are: less exposure to safelight, and you know the print is fully immersed. But disadvantages mentioned include the greater chance of a spill or damaging the print, more oxygen in the developer, and another I just thought of: the portion of the print touching the bottom will get less developer, causing unevenness. To me, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Are there any other advantages to starting face-down?

Mark Overton

grain elevator · Aug 11, 2022

Rocking the tray seems sufficient to me for normal printing, never had unevenness (no surprise, I develop to completion) except when lith printing. In that case I sometimes do the method so poetically named belly flop above, but only if the paper curves significantly so the emulsion side is convex and won't hold on to an air bubble, and would stick out of the developer face up.
I'd rather avoid flipping in the fix because of the risk of splashing.
Test strips I agitate with the tongs, they tend to float around with the liquid so there is little liquid motion in their surface.

btaylor · Aug 11, 2022

albada said:
Posted advantages to starting face-down are: less exposure to safelight, and you know the print is fully immersed. But disadvantages mentioned include the greater chance of a spill or damaging the print, more oxygen in the developer, and another I just thought of: the portion of the print touching the bottom will get less developer, causing unevenness. To me, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Are there any other advantages to starting face-down?

Mark Overton

I always tray developed prints face up until I took a seminar from Bob Carney. He always starts face down. FB paper usually has a slight curl towards the emulsion side, so sliding in face up I have noticed I need to push the print down (I use tongs) which I also learned from Bob can leave slight marks on the emulsion. When using the face down method to start I also find the image comes up more evenly than my old way. In my experience additional oxygenation of developer isn’t an issue (Dektol 1:2 one session).
Everyone has their own way of working, so if it works for you keep doing it. I changed the way I was doing it and like the results.

lecarp · Aug 11, 2022

I prefer they remain calm, trying my best not to agitate them. They sometime become quite nasty when agitated!

Sirius Glass · Aug 11, 2022

lecarp said:
I prefer they remain calm, trying my best not to agitate them. They sometime become quite nasty when agitated!

Yes they can get quite agitated, but I have never had one bite me.

brian steinberger · Aug 11, 2022

Back in 2006 I took a workshop in NYC with a printer and he recommended flipping the print every 30 seconds and then back again, all while agitating every 5 seconds with the print face up. Since I was just starting out at that time that’s what I do, but I’ve been thinking about just leaving the print face up the whole time, particularly with RC paper where I’m not sure it really matters. The workshop instructors reasoning was that flipping the print and then back again introduces the print to areas of new developer.

I read that John Sexton when developing a series of prints will develop two prints at a time back to back constantly flipping them during development. Not sure if he just does this when he’s doing multiple prints or when he does a single print as well.

Don_ih · Aug 11, 2022

A print doesn't actually need "new developer" as it develops. If the developer is so weak that the print does, you need to get fresh developer.

What happens when developer is depletes is: muddy prints. If your print is developing decently quickly to a good contrast, your developer is fine. With fresh developer, at a proper dilution, a print will develop properly no matter how you mess with it.

Avoiding tongs on the emulsion, however, is a good idea.

albada · Aug 12, 2022

Don Heisz said:
A print doesn't actually need "new developer" as it develops.

Coincidentally, I tested this idea last week. I wanted to compress shadows, and figured if I did not agitate, shadow-development would lag the rest, yielding compressed shadows, similar to a compensating developer for film. I made two 4x5 prints of the same neg, both exposed identically. I developed one normally, and developed the other with *no* agitation for twice as long (both face-up). Both prints look identical. So maybe the slow drifting of fluid on its own is enough. Maybe there's no point in getting agitated about agitation because it makes no difference. Seriously, I'll keep agitating, but I won't be concerned about it.

Mark Overton

pentaxuser · Aug 12, 2022

albada said:
Coincidentally, I tested this idea last week. I wanted to compress shadows, and figured if I did not agitate, shadow-development would lag the rest, yielding compressed shadows, similar to a compensating developer for film. I made two 4x5 prints of the same neg, both exposed identically. I developed one normally, and developed the other with *no* agitation for twice as long (both face-up). Both prints look identical. So maybe the slow drifting of fluid on its own is enough. Maybe there's no point in getting agitated about agitation because it makes no difference. Seriously, I'll keep agitating, but I won't be concerned about it.

Mark Overton

Interesting, thanks. This tends to suggest that moving a print back and forth in a vertical slot such as a Nova Processor as Nova recommends makes no difference either

Next time I print I'll try and remember this and experiment with no movement at all to see what difference there is.

Brian Steinberger above was told by a printer on a course in NYC what he recommended for agitation and flipping and this involved quite a complex routine. However the reason why he did this, namely to introduce fresh developer would also apply if you simply "rocked" the tray, surely? Probably no-one on the course put that point to the printer as such behaviour is not what is expected between teacher and pupil or learners and masters.

I might have been like Brian and not questioned an expert printer on a course but now I'm different and unless it is clear that method A clearly does things that methods B-Z do not, I want to ask questions

The problem with photography is that over the course of time and for reasons we have forgotten about or never knew in the first place, a certain way, usually from some "master" is, compared to all other ways, at worst the best way to do it and "in extremis" is the only way that avoids utter disaster.

Talking of "in extremis", didn't the lack of asking "Why?" result in the absolute tragedy of Jim Jones being able to persuade a few hundred followers to take poison in a Guyanian jungle?

pentaxuser

BobUK · Aug 12, 2022

pentaxuser

It's aways best to ask if unsure

Old proverb,

To ask is to show a moments ignorance.
Not to ask is to know a lifetimes ignorance.

Agitating Prints

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