AGFAPHOTO APX100 UD7050 Origins?

pentaxuser · Mar 29, 2015

I am seeking help from those who are really familiar with the history of the above film. A friend has a 135 roll of the above film. On its edges is the above markins. AGFAPHOTO APXIOO seems to be in a mid-grey colour and all in block capitals. In terms of typeface it is a bit like Times New Roman. Close to it is UD7050, also in block capitals but this is in bold face and much darker, almost black I'd say.

Can anyone say which version of APX 100 this is?

I know a little of the recent history of Agfa film and the confusion that surrounds who now commissions the new APX 100 and who actually makes it but unless this is pertinent to my question I am not looking for posters to go into the history or how good or otherwise it is/was etc. This is purely an attempt to date it for him. However based on my friend's memory which is a little hazy I think we can rule out a very recent purchase.

So can anyone help based on what information I have supplied about the edge markings?

Thank you

pentaxuser

gorbas · Mar 29, 2015

Agfaphoto markings are from one of the latest coatings of this film after splitting Agfaphoto from main Agfa company. I have some 40 rolls of this film with emulsion markings UD9840. Font used and markings were different before company split.

pentaxuser · Mar 29, 2015

Thanks for the reply, gorbas. I think you are saying this cannot be film from the original Agfa company but is from the split. Are you saying that any film with the UD code indicates that it is post the original Agfa?

Do you know who might have made this film? I note that you have UD 9840 which is different from my UD 7050. Can you say why this is the case. Is yours APX 100?

In very recent times the latest rumour is that APX is now made by Ilford and is very similar, if not identical to Ilford's Kentmere. Indeed one U.K. retailer actually says that he believes the latest APX comes from Ilford on his website.

However there seems to be a period when it was/is claimed that APX was the same as Rollei films so APX 100 and 400 was the same as Rollei 100 and 400 and looking at the Massive Development Chart the times for APX100 and Rollei 100 are identical

Thanks

pentaxuser

gorbas · Mar 29, 2015

Hi Pentaxuser, as far as I understand, nobody can make original APX100 any longer because one of the chemical components for it is banned or unavailable in EU?? It does not stop anybody naming any other film emulsion as they wish as APX100.
Original Agfa and Agfaphoto APX100 was coated by Agfa in their facility. Now I'm not sure where Agfa coating facility was located and what happened with it after bankruptcy. Mirko from Fotoimpex bought their test coating machine, maybe he knows full story???
Agfa APX100 had printed on film margin 3 digit number as emulsion batch identification (here on the scan - 704), also font used was very different than Agfaphoto's.
All APX100 I used was from 100' bulk rolls. All Agfaphoto APX100 I used are in single 36ex cassettes.
I did not noticed any big difference between Agfa APX100 and Agfaphoto APX100. Agfaphoto was very short lived, less than a year.
As far as I remember Rollei brand of films appear after demise of Agfa/Agfaphoto.
There is a big mess now with who is actually coating/producing films and how they are marketed.

Xmas · Mar 29, 2015

If the box says made in Ge it is probably post bankruptcy coated.

It was available in UK retail until fall 13 with about 18 months to best before date. In Rodinal stand 20C for 60 minutes it is a real 100 ISO.

The novo APX says made in EU.

hka · Mar 30, 2015

Before bankruptcy the markings on the original APX100 where as follows.
Marking at the top edge AGFA.
At the bottom is APX100.
Thats all.

pentaxuser · Mar 30, 2015

Thanks Harry. I hope you are well. We actually met on the 2008 Ilford tour.

The film whose markings I am referring to is certainly not as you describe so I can rule out pre-bankruptcy stock and I would have been surprised anyway if it was that old.

Based on gorbas second reply( thanks gorbas) it would seem that the film is post Agfa and part of the Agfaphoto run which was less than a year. So who produced the short-lived Agfaphoto and how close to the original Agfa was it in terms of ingredients etc as gorbas states?

It certainly isn't clear to me where the post bankruptcy film was produced or even if it was just re-labelled Rollei nor is it clear if APX has become Kentmere by another name.

Unless someone who really knows the facts is prepared to report them we may never know and if the new producer of APX is using the same edge markings as was the case when it was made by another third party i.e. not the original Agfa company, then confusion may rule and I cannot get it out of my head that this confusion seems to be in the interests of the "powers to be" .

Otherwise by now we would have the whole unequivocal story and all speculation would have stopped

pentaxuser

Xmas · Mar 30, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Based on gorbas second reply( thanks gorbas) it would seem that the film is post Agfa and part of the Agfaphoto run which was less than a year. So who produced the short-lived Agfaphoto and how close to the original Agfa was it in terms of ingredients etc as gorbas states?

The Ge Receiver or administrator is required to sell off all stock etc. at best market vaiue, so they ran the machines while they could, after bankruptcy... may not have been exactly the same but they wont have been developing a new process either.

pentaxuser said:
It certainly isn't clear to me where the post bankruptcy film was produced or even if it was just re-labelled Rollei nor is it clear if APX has become Kentmere by another name.

Unless someone who really knows the facts is prepared to report them we may never know and if the new producer of APX is using the same edge markings as was the case when it was made by another third party i.e. not the original Agfa company, then confusion may rule and I cannot get it out of my head that this confusion seems to be in the interests of the "powers to be" .

Otherwise by now we would have the whole unequivocal story and all speculation would have stopped

pentaxuser

I'm curious why should be worried, but if you are the DX coding information will tell you the manufacture. There is a database somewhere on the web.

The boxes were clearly annotated...

Pre bankrupsy the box said...

Agfa Gervert AG, D1301 Leverkursen Postfack 100160 etc.

Post Bankruptcy

My APX100 file to hand which had an expiry of 12/2014 says made in Germany and was labelled AGFA PHOTO APX100 UD 7050 the box said 'Neither Agfa Gervert NV & Co KG nor Agfa Gervert NV manufacture this film...' etc. This does not mean a different factory or different staff.

Today the 'new' film is in a different box (if you compare boxes and cassette labels, they would not pass as bank notes) and says 'Made in EU'

Badge engineering is a normal commercial practice.

The significant difference is pre the bankruptcy the film had a premium price then it went cheap now is is back to a premium price. The receiver was or had dumped it at best price.

It is pretty normal that lenses need to change or film needs to change cause a raw maternal is or was contraband.

For example my pre bankruptcy APX400 120 has a box warning - new development times inside.

Another example Kodak made still film in France and UK until 2004 or so, as well as the USA, it wont have been exactly the same on different machines, different factories, different processes.

Lastly do Rolli coat or have they ever coated film?

Harman have four 100 ISO films currently on shelves, they may have others. .

pentaxuser · Mar 30, 2015

My APX100 file to hand which had an expiry of 12/2014 says made in Germany and was labelled AGFA PHOTO APX100 UD 7050 the box said 'Neither Agfa Gervert NV & Co KG nor Agfa Gervert NV manufacture this film...' etc. This does not mean a different factory or different staff.

Thanks for the reply, Xmas. It would seem that based on your quote above, the film in question is quite recent but I am not sure what you mean by the last sentence in your quote.

Could you elaborate on this bit? Thanks. Perhaps I need to add for everybody's benefit is that the info I gave in my original post was all I or my friend has. There is no cassette or box. Had there been I'd have added info from them to assist.

pentaxuser

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 30, 2015

This is as clear as mud, isn't it?

There is actually no confusion.
It is a Noel said.
Until 2013 all APX100 was coated at the Leverkursen plant. It was Agfa, then it became Agfaphoto.
It is the same film made in the same factory.

Later in 2013, Agfaphoto run out of the original APX100 and made a contract with Harman for the production of a new APX100. New boxes says "Made in EU" as Noel said.
Film markings are "AGFAPHOTO APX100" and "2587-12" for the new emulsion. No mention of UDxxxx. Thanks Noel for the New APX100.
Agfaphoto has nothing to do with Rollei/Maco films.

pentaxuser · Mar 30, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
This is as clear as mud, isn't it?

There is actually no confusion.
It is a Noel said.
Until 2013 all APX100 was coated at the Leverkursen plant. It was Agfa, then it became Agfaphoto.
It is the same film made in the same factory.

Later in 2013, Agfaphoto run out of the original APX100 and made a contract with Harman for the production of a new APX100. New boxes says "Made in EU" as Noel said.
Film markings are "AGFAPHOTO APX100" and "2587-12" for the new emulsion. No mention of UDxxxx. Thanks Noel for the New APX100.
Agfaphoto has nothing to do with Rollei/Maco films.

Thanks for that. This is becoming clearer. What my friend has in terms of edge-marking is the same as Xmas quotes so he has in effect the original APX100. I had no idea that the Leverkusen Plant was still coating until as recently as 2013.

Given that Agfaphoto has nothing to do with Rollei/Maco films, I take it that it is pure coincidence that the times quoted for Afga APX100 and 400 in the MDC are the same as those quoted for Rollei 100 and 400?

Things become more curious. I was looking for stockists of APX on Saturday as part of this research and came across a U.K. retailer who said on his website that as he believed that APX 100 was the same as Kentmere he was stocking Kentmere only.

His same website today shows APX film as well as Kentmere and makes no mention of it being the same as Kentmere?

When you "google for info and it gives various sources which you link to, are those sources up to date i.e. it shows the site as it was the day of the google( Saturday)? If so there appears to have been a change of heart, brought-on by I know not what?

pentaxuser

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 30, 2015

I had no idea that the Leverkusen Plant was still coating until as recently as 2013.

It hasn't! They did a "Koda" trick: they used master rolls frozen since 2005. Since the Leverkusen plant was closed in or around 2005 Agfaphoto had master rolls in frozen in storage. When they needed more cassettes, they send it to a facility for sliting and packaging.

I take it that it is pure coincidence that the times quoted for Afga APX100 and 400 in the MDC are the same as those quoted for Rollei 100 and 400?

Let's put this way: both films have the "finger" of Harman in there. Packaging is very similar. Off course, Simon can't say how much "Harman" is in there.

His same website today shows APX film as well as Kentmere and makes no mention of it being the same as Kentmere?

Would you be so kind as to tell me what is the website, please? By PM if you don't wish to made public. Thanks!

K100/400, APX100/400 and RPX100/400 are all "made in E.U.". Guess what lucky country is it?
EU at times is very convenient to hide certain "secrets".

Trask · Mar 30, 2015

My APX100 file to hand which had an expiry of 12/2014 says made in Germany and was labelled AGFA PHOTO APX100 UD 7050 the box said 'Neither Agfa Gervert NV & Co KG nor Agfa Gervert NV manufacture this film...' etc. This does not mean a different factory or different staff.[/QUOTE said:
Just to chime in: I recently bought 34 rolls of Agfaphoto APX100 expiration 12/2015 coded UD7050, betting that it was from an earlier master roll and that the quoted language "Neither etc." was carefully crafted language go address legal issues about exactly which part of what used to be Agfa owned what. I've shot a lot of real APX100, and have several 100' rolls since I like it so much, so I was interested to see if the new stuff I'd purchased matched the old.

Having shot multiple rolls now, I have come to the conclusion that it's the same stuff, or so close that I cannot tell the difference. I do think it's true APX100 from before "the troubles" that was re-confectioned with this different wording along the margins and sold by Lupus Imaging using the name it had acquired the rights to.

Someone needs to write a doctoral thesis on all this, and as a follow-up do a thesis on Zeiss east and west and who did what to whom. Both of these highly obscure histories are making my head spin.

Xmas · Mar 30, 2015

Hi

First I apologies for too abstract, that was unintentional. The following is still abstract.

When a Ge conpany declares it is bankrupt an authority is appointed to run down the factory and pay the most possible (largest %) back to share holders and staff and creditors, there is an order of preference.

The authority has stocks of raw materials, futures purchased e.g. for silver (to reduce exposure to price shifts), etc., staff to pay and then make redundant, and the shareholders and suppliers invoices to pay. etc.,....

He decides he can coat for 9 months (say) to use up all the silver, base and gelatine and sell the master rolls, finish some fraction of current master rolls to obtain a large mark up from raw stock prices etc. Fireing the workers in sequence etc.,... He uses an Excel spread sheet to make the decision to wring out the last Dm from the factory while it is still a going concern (ok Euro).

So my 12/2014 expiry was one of the last master rolls finished, but Ive bought the same film with a later date in fall of 2013 without and expiry some time in 2015 (from memory). No trace of fog or loss of speed detectable. The 100 is slow film, stores well as master roll.

There is a number on the cassette between the felt trap on the DX code which identifies the film type for photo finishers, if you PM Ricardo he may be able to say what the photo finishers database says about who made it, and which emulsion it is.

Cause I normally process every thing in Rodinal 1:100 for 60 minutes, I don't worry.

I have used a brick of the new APX100, but the 'brick' is hiding somewhere, my filing is pretty good but involves ~100 backlog of mono, more sleeved but not indexed for retrieval, and two enlargers in small pieces.

The list of companies with film production coaters in EU is short, Ilford, Foma, Inviscoat(?), maybe Orwo, shortly to be joined by Ferrani.

This wont be that clear you will need to query again.

Noel

mnemosyne · Mar 30, 2015

Xmas said:
The list of companies with film production coaters in EU is short, Ilford, Foma, Inviscoat(?), maybe Orwo, shortly to be joined by Ferrani.

add Agfa-Gevaert N.V. (Mortsel/Belgium)

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 30, 2015

Noel

Pentaxuser doesn't have the cassette, so I can't look up the DX code. But, we already know is it original APX100.
I've developed the "New APX100" another day as I used it to test the "New black OM-1N". Markings on rebate are similar wording, but different codes. The bottom frame numbers are also different.

Xmas · Mar 30, 2015

Trask said:
betting that it was from an earlier master roll and that the quoted language "Neither etc." was carefully crafted language go address legal issues about exactly which part of what used to be Agfa owned what.
.

The film would have been coated at Leverkursen, and sold by the administrators with a one time rights to the trade name (APX100) etc. with or without a warranty, to a new company (Agfa photo). They might have sold the trade name in perpetuity, for more money. Administrators are greedy.

So the disclaimers are statements of fact for warrenty purposes.

The marks on the Agfa and Agfa Photo film boxes are/were different, so even if you are dyslexic, you know it is a 'different' film, (although it is the same).

The edge numbers (Agfa and Agfa Photo) are different presumably cause the finisher used a different machine.

The edge numbers of the new APX100 and Harman films may be the same but that only means that they are finished on a similar machine...

There cannot be many people makng finishing machines.

Xmas · Mar 30, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
Noel

Pentaxuser doesn't have the cassette, so I can't look up the DX code. But, we already know is it original APX100.
I've developed the "New APX100" another day as I used it to test the "New black OM-1N". Markings on rebate are similar wording, but different codes. The bottom frame numbers are also different.

I assume you looked up the code on the cassette, or did you use rodinal at 1:100?

pentaxuser · Mar 30, 2015

Ricardo and Trask, thanks both. My head has been spinning since I began to be curious about the origins of the film whose edge-markings I quoted

Ricardo I misunderstood your quote: "Until 2013 all APX was coated at the Leverkusen plant" I thought this meant it was still being coated whereas it was "old stock" that was frozen. I take it that as the edge-markings had changed since the time of the former Agfa plant based on hka's post, it is possible to then add different edge markings i.e AGFAPHOTO APX100 followed by UD7050?

The case for the "finger of Harman" being involved is also confused as far as I am concerned. The MDC quotes the same times for Xtol at 1+1 with Rollei and APX 100(9.75 mins) but there is a 1.25 mins difference for Kentmere(11mins)

I had hoped there might be Ilford times for Xtol with all three films but there isn't. However there are Ilford times for all three films with D76(stock) and lo and behold all three are the same at 9 mins

As far as lovers of former APX are concerned I suppose the key question is: Does it have the same characteristics as the former Agfa and Agfaphoto APX100?

A subsidiary question is: Is APX 100 now to all intents and purposes the same as Kentmere which might make it different from the old APX and less attractive?

OK we are now moving away from the purpose of my original post and into the subjective, judgemental arena at my initiative.

So if anyone cares now to cover that aspect then feel free

pentaxuser

Xmas · Mar 30, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Ricardo I misunderstood your quote: "Until 2013 all APX was coated at the Leverkusen plant" I thought this meant it was still being coated whereas it was "old stock" that was frozen. I take it that as the edge-markings had changed since the time of the former Agfa plant based on hka's post, it is possible to then add different edge markings i.e AGFAPHOTO APX100 followed by UD7050?

The master rolls are wide strips as wide as the coater and as long as the drying area allows.
They are wound up sealed and stored cold.
They are perforated and edge marked when they are finished, loaded into cassettes or unto cores and then boxed.
The Agfa (Leverkusen) edge marking and the Agfa Photo edge marketing is different, could be different machines.

It is simpler using Foma 100... drinking more beer ... worrying less.

Noel

pentaxuser · Mar 30, 2015

Thank you Xmas I now know from your post that master rolls are not edge marked until ready for cutting and loading into cassettes. I may know little about what APX is now, who makes it etc but I have added to my knowledge

pentaxuser

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 30, 2015

The New APX100 is very similar to Kentmere 100. It is though more expensive than K100.

I like both K100 and Fomapan 100.

As Noel said, get some F100 and don't worry.

Process Supplies have great prices on Foma. They also don't list all items on website. Give them a call.
Fomapan 100 in 100ft bulk is £36.

Xmas · Mar 30, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Thank you Xmas I now know from your post that master rolls are not edge marked until ready for cutting and loading into cassettes. I may know little about what APX is now, who makes it etc but I have added to my knowledge

pentaxuser

I think the modern cutters and perforators, edge mark on the same pass. Other wise a 2nd pass would be necessary for edge marking.

Ron needs to help you on exact details of current machinery

hka · Mar 31, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Harry. I hope you are well. We actually met on the 2008 Ilford tour.pentaxuser

Yes I know. I joined the stay in the UK and the visit at Harman was an eye-opener for me and also meeting enthusiastic people from over the world.
I am still on the right side .

cmacd123 · Mar 31, 2015

It is confusing and the folks who own the AgfaPhoto trademarks these days would probably like to keep it that way.

AGFA sold the still film business to a startup called AgfaPhoto. it included the leverkusen plant. Agfa Kept their Commercial film business and the plant in Belgium. AgfaPhoto promptly went into receivership and the plant they now owned was demolished. Before then a lot of master rolls of the APX film was apparently made and stored.

Some of the machinery from the plant that was demolished went to Inviscoat. One of the film finishing machines seems to have be bought by Maco/Rolii or perhaps someone else who has been packaging film for them.

Maco has sold many films which they bought from AGFA Belguim in Bulk, as rollii agfa film. they were all designed as AREO film, and often have extended Red sensitivity.

the otfit that got the AGfaPhoto name out of the bankruptcy, Which I believe is called Lupus Imaging, has been selling the APX which was made in the Leverkusen plant and was stored. They have used it all up and had a new film made and packaged by an OEM manufacturer, The packaging appears to have been done by Harman in the UK, but it is not necessarily made by them.

To add more confusion, the last TWO generations of 35mm FIlm packing machines at Harmon were Aparently made by AGFA. and so any film packaged by Harman will have a similar type style to film packed on the machines that AGFA made for themselves. There are some software differences, like the Number for Frame 37 is a touch different.

Harmon no doubt is covered by a non-disclosure agreement so they are not able to say anything about the film they make or package for other customers. The Latest RPX films from Maco also seem to have similarity to Harmon packaging.

Finally ORWO (filmotec.de) sells motion Picture film, but it is not clear if they have coating capacity or if they buy the film from someone else and just cut and perforate it. If they do have coating capacity they may be selling film in bulk to some of the other players.

AGFA Belgum is apparently only set up to coat on Polyester film base so any film from that source is on a poly base. They don't have any capacity to finish still film as that was sold as part of the AgfaPhoto deal.

Clear as mud.

AGFAPHOTO APX100 UD7050 Origins?

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