Agfa orthochromatic document film from the fifties I want advice

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

Hello dear colleagues,
A esteemed friend brought me this reel. (God bless him)
In fact, I am confused about the way to deal with this - method of photography. There is no ISO number written
And the development method as well. I have a recipe for a microfilm developer, but I do not know if it will be suitable or not? .
Yes, I know perfectly well that I have to do several experiments and tests, but that reel is currently in the mail and it will take some time to reach me due to the pressure of work at the Postal Authority during the festive season.
So I wanted to discuss with my respected colleagues about this so that I could get a starting point from which to start the experiments and tests.
- It is said that this film is the legal father of the film (Arista), but I actually do not know what is the truth of this because I have no experience with the genetics of the categories of films.
If any of you have any suggestions I would be very, very grateful.

AgX · Dec 24, 2021

They are intended for a workflow with fixed pameters, without using a lightmeter..Such films are typically offered without stating their sensitivity. Being extremely contrasty this depends on the developer and with orthochromatic, or even spectrally unsentized on the light source.

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

AgX said:
They are intended for a workflow with fixed pameters, without using a lightmeter..Such films are typically offered without stating their sensitivity. Being extremely contrasty this depends on the developer and with orthochromatic, or even spectrally unsentized on the light source.

thank you for your reply
But I find it difficult to properly understand your idea.
What do I do if I want to take advantage of this reel?
Do I need to get rid of that reel or what?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 24, 2021

@mohmad khatab: I think what @AgX means is that this film is not meant to be used for pictorial purposes. If you develop a small strip of film, you might get more info about the film in the writing between the sprocket holes.

Alan Johnson · Dec 24, 2021

Might help:
https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
@mohmad khatab: I think what @AgX means is that this film is not meant to be used for pictorial purposes. If you develop a small strip of film, you might get more info about the film in the writing between the sprocket holes.

you are absolutely right ..

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
Might help:
https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference

You are amazing man, may God bless you
Greetings to you
Merry Christmas

AgX · Dec 24, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
@mohmad khatab: I think what @AgX means is that this film is not meant to be used for pictorial purposes.

Yes.
I thought the term Dokumenten Film already said enough.

These films typically were used to reproduce texts or graphics. The were used by amateurs too, for recording documents or to make graphics from continuos tone negatives. The latter is something completely negated here at Apug. In this case the document film yields an interpostive, which is used to expose onto photographic paper directly, or by means of copying onto a second document film a internegative is made.

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

AgX said:
Yes.
I thought the term Dokumenten Film already said enough.

These films typically were used to reproduce texts or graphics. The were used by amateurs too, for recording documents or to make graphics from continuos tone negatives. The latter is something completely negated here at Apug. In this case the document film yields an interpostive, which is used to expose onto photographic paper directly, or by means of copying onto a second document film a internegative is made.

great ,,
If that reel came to you as a gift,
Or if you found it on the street.
How will you deal with it?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 24, 2021

Try reaching out to Daniel Keating on Facebook. He has tinkered with such films and come up recipes that might help you.

AgX · Dec 24, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
great ,,
If that reel came to you as a gift,
Or if you found it on the street.
How will you deal with it?

These films were not made for amateurs, not for pictorial use, not for continuous tones, but for a commercial, fixed set/up for repetitive use. The commercial client then by trial could find out how to expose and develop.
For a later film Agfa published even a broshure for amateur use.

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Daniel Keating

Yes I love this man with a beard and we respect each other

mohmad khatab · Dec 24, 2021

AgX said:
These films were not made for amateurs, not for pictorial use, not for continuous tones, but for a commercial, fixed set/up for repetitive use. The commercial client then by trial could find out how to expose and develop.
For a later film Agfa published even a broshure for amateur use.

Well, no problem, my friend.
I will do my best to do tests on this emulsion.

Murray Kelly · Dec 25, 2021

Could this be the same Agfa film used by Holden and Weichert back about the same time as the use-by date on the can? Look up the H&W developer.
In a recent thread here Alan Johnson has compounded a 2-bath for this sort of film.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/developer-for-aviphot-pan-200.182434/
Don't be put off by the title and start reading from post #100. He uses Metol and CD4
I have been using Imagelink HQ ISO25 with a developer made with 0.5ml Rodinal and 0.5ml of HC110 (syrup) in 250ml water semi stand 40 mins.
Good luck.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 25, 2021

Dilute developer with somewhat lower pH than normal might work for very high contrast films though there'll be significant speed loss. I got very nice results out of Micrat Orto, an orthochromatic document film sold by Astrum, by using dilute Kalogen with some sodium citrate. My Flickr stream has some examples in case you want to look at.

Murray Kelly · Dec 25, 2021

The rodinal/HC110 mix has the pH of HC110. It swamps completely the alkali in rodinal.

mohmad khatab · Dec 25, 2021

Murray Kelly said:
Could this be the same Agfa film used by Holden and Weichert back about the same time as the use-by date on the can? Look up the H&W developer.
In a recent thread here Alan Johnson has compounded a 2-bath for this sort of film.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/developer-for-aviphot-pan-200.182434/
Don't be put off by the title and start reading from post #100. He uses Metol and CD4
I have been using Imagelink HQ ISO25 with a developer made with 0.5ml Rodinal and 0.5ml of HC110 (syrup) in 250ml water semi stand 40 mins.
Good luck.

You are truly a wonderful Australian man, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
This is a really cool and interesting topic. God bless you
Sincere greetings to you and your family
Merry Christmas

mohmad khatab · Dec 25, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Dilute developer with somewhat lower pH than normal might work for very high contrast films though there'll be significant speed loss. I got very nice results out of Micrat Orto, an orthochromatic document film sold by Astrum, by using dilute Kalogen with some sodium citrate. My Flickr stream has some examples in case you want to look at.

Is the nature of the orthochromatic document film different from the nature of the astrum for aerial photography?
I really do not know
Actually both are (orthochromatic) but actually I don't know, are there any differences between the two or they are one thing.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 25, 2021

I don't know if they are the same. You can ask Dmitriy and find out. By the way, Mikrat is a very slow speed film (ISO 3) and as such not useful for handheld photography. But it's a very fine grain and high resolution film that gave me very nice results in both negative and positive development. It gets scratched very easily and hence needs to be handled carefully.

mohmad khatab · Dec 25, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
using dilute Kalogen with some sodium citrate.

Yes brother, I have always been in love with the results of these wonderful pictures and I did not know that it was from a movie of the same category, I am very happy.
But at the beginning of the discussion you asked me to go ask the white-bearded man on Facebook for help.?
I really can't find a logical explanation for your behaviour.
- What's your story, man?
You have the answer, but you're sending me in another direction? Why are you doing this to me ?
- You know I have a developer (Kalogen), why didn't you tell me that from the start? What is the amount of sodium citrate on (final solution after dilution 1+99)?

Murray Kelly said:
start reading from post #100. He uses Metol and CD4

I read the topic, and I saw the final pictures, but I was not convinced by the results, the size of the grain is very large and the edges of the grain are prominent and recessed from the depth, which gives the shape of the grain a large sharpness that I do not like in this way.

Murray Kelly said:
I have been using Imagelink HQ ISO25 with a developer made with 0.5ml Rodinal and 0.5ml of HC110 (syrup) in 250ml water semi stand 40 mins.

Actually I have Rodinal, but I don't have a HC110 - but I have a PG110D, a recipe Uncle Raghu suggested, available on flickr. Based on Phindion + Ascorbic Acid + Borax in Propylene Glycol.
what do you say

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 25, 2021

@mohmad khatab: don't mistake me, I don't know if this Agfa film is similar to Micrat as I've never used the Agfa film. You're on your own here as far as Agfa film is concerned and I don't want to give you false hopes. Dilute developer with reduced pH is something you can try and find out if it works.

Murray Kelly · Dec 25, 2021

Mohmad Khatab, Thank you for the unearned flattery. I am merely a reporter of old (H&W) history and recent (Alan Johnson). I was impressed with the huge enlargements possible of Alan's sample pics. Images that would cover a wall have no grain to my (poor) sight. The gradation is pictorial enough for me with this class of film. As the saying goes "Horses for courses"

Try my brew with some slow fine grain film with what you have. I hope it works well for you but we are talking v old film and don't ever forget these films demand superior lenses and an extraordinary hand control or you waste your time.
Good luck, again..

mohmad khatab · Dec 25, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I don't know if they are the same. You can ask Dmitriy and find out. By the way, Mikrat is a very slow speed film (ISO 3) and as such not useful for handheld photography. But it's a very fine grain and high resolution film that gave me very nice results in both negative and positive development. It gets scratched very easily and hence needs to be handled carefully.

Dimitri is a vain guy who doesn't know anything.. he's just a salesman. He doesn't know anything. He's not a photographer and he doesn't know anything about analog photography.,,
I am already thinking of doing positive development.
This emulsion can tolerate potassium thiocyanate

mohmad khatab · Dec 25, 2021

Murray Kelly said:
Mohmad Khatab, Thank you for the unearned flattery. I am merely a reporter of old (H&W) history and recent (Alan Johnson). I was impressed with the huge enlargements possible of Alan's sample pics. Images that would cover a wall have no grain to my (poor) sight. The gradation is pictorial enough for me with this class of film. As the saying goes "Horses for courses"

Try my brew with some slow fine grain film with what you have. I hope it works well for you but we are talking v old film and don't ever forget these films demand superior lenses and an extraordinary hand control or you waste your time.
Good luck, again..

yes dear brother,
You're absolutely right ,,
It takes a lot of effort in doing experiments and tests and there is no magic formula that can do everything with

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 28, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I am already thinking of doing positive development.

Post your results if you make progress.

Agfa orthochromatic document film from the fifties I want advice

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