Agfa Isolette 3 users

Neil Grant · Aug 7, 2020

...I now have one of these as a 'pocket' camera. It has a 75mm f/3.5 lens, shutter to 1/300 sec and uncoupled RF. I've got a few questions that owners may be able to help answer.
1. after the shutter is cocked, is it possible to change 'speed' without causing damage?
2. what is the longest exposure time for reliable hand-held photography?
3. mounting modern 'circular' filters via step-down ring? I have a bunch of 49mm HMC bw 'contrast' filters, but the lens is not threaded - only pushfit.
4. is there some sort of interlock that blocks multiple exposure or winding-on without exposure?
Thanks if you can help.

Helge · Aug 7, 2020

Neil Grant said:
...I now have one of these as a 'pocket' camera. It has a 75mm f/3.5 lens, shutter to 1/300 sec and uncoupled RF. I've got a few questions that owners may be able to help answer.
1. after the shutter is cocked, is it possible to change 'speed' without causing damage?
2. what is the longest exposure time for reliable hand-held photography?
3. mounting modern 'circular' filters via step-down ring? I have a bunch of 49mm HMC bw 'contrast' filters, but the lens is not threaded - only pushfit.
4. is there some sort of interlock that blocks multiple exposure or winding-on without exposure?
Thanks if you can help.

1. AFAIK it’s only the 500 speed on shutters with that speed, where it’s bad to force a speed change once it’s cocked.

2. I’d say 25th of a second with good technique. That is in a leaf shutter only camera. With an SLR it’s about one 60th of a second.
Remember it’s swinging rotation of the lens around the X and Y axis that is bad.
Sliding translations along all the axis and rotating around Z means much less for motion blur.
Brace yourself and your hands wherever possible and use a short tripod on your chest with a cable release. Monopods could also be an option.
That way you could get lucky, even down to one tenth of a second.

3. Your best bet is to just hold the filters in front of the lens.
No doubt there is some kind of Cokin holder with screw thread adapter that can be screwed into the tripod mount?
But original filters are really worth getting, and I think not that expensive if you look away from eBay.
Much more convenient and no internal reflections.
You also really need a shade for any kind of daylight shooting.

4. Multi exposure prevention should be a given with the red dot indicator and inability to trigger the shutter (though can be forced on the lens).

“Not winding too early” prevention is impossible without the mechanism having any idea of where you are on the roll. So no.
The general advice is to advance just before you shoot, to have taut film and no suck-out of the film when opening the bellows.

Alan9940 · Aug 7, 2020

Congrats on your new Isolette. I sold mine long ago, but I'll try to answer as best as I remember:

1. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the shutter speed shouldn't be changed after the shutter is cocked. Since my normal procedure with all cameras is to cock the shutter just prior to exposure, it was never a concern for me with the Isolette.

2. Highly variable between photographers. How steady are your hands? What technique do you use when handholding at lower shutter speeds?

3. I had a push-on lens hood. For filters, I have a set of Cokin resin filters that measure about 3x4" and I just held whatever I needed in front of the lens.

4. I don't believe so. My Zeiss Super Ikonta III won't let you wind on the film until an exposure is made, but I'm pretty sure I could make multiple exposures on any single frame (though, I've never even tried doing this.)

Enjoy your new pocket powerhouse!

JPD · Aug 7, 2020

Neil Grant said:
...I now have one of these as a 'pocket' camera. It has a 75mm f/3.5 lens, shutter to 1/300 sec and uncoupled RF. I've got a few questions that owners may be able to help answer.
1. after the shutter is cocked, is it possible to change 'speed' without causing damage?
2. what is the longest exposure time for reliable hand-held photography?
3. mounting modern 'circular' filters via step-down ring? I have a bunch of 49mm HMC bw 'contrast' filters, but the lens is not threaded - only pushfit.
4. is there some sort of interlock that blocks multiple exposure or winding-on without exposure?
Thanks if you can help.

1. Set the shutter speed before cocking the shutter. Always.
2. 1/25 sec.
3. It's mure fun to have the proper size push-on filters and sun shade. They can be found cheap.
4. It has double exposure prevention.

The manual: https://www.cameramanuals.org/agfa_ansco/agfa_isolette_iii.pdf

Has the camera been serviced? The Agfa Isolettes more often than not have frozen focusing rings and leaky bellows.

Donald Qualls · Aug 7, 2020

Alan9940 said:
4. I don't believe so. My Zeiss Super Ikonta III won't let you wind on the film until an exposure is made, but I'm pretty sure I could make multiple exposures on any single frame (though, I've never even tried doing this.)

Can't say for sure on a Super Ikonta III, but its immediate predecessor, the Super Ikonta B, has both double exposure and unexposed winding prevention. Overriding the double exposure lock is fairly easy (trip the shutter directly), but you have to have operated the in-body release to advance film.

Now, whether any of this is true of an Isolette III is pure conjecture without having one in hand (or at least having owned one long enough to consider it familiar).

Bormental · Aug 7, 2020

Neil Grant said:
2. what is the longest exposure time for reliable hand-held photography?

I do not own this camera, but I have a similar-concept Fuji GF670. I am disappointed that handheld stability is less than of my Mamiya TLR. Even using 1/125s does not provide guarantee. I will keep practicing, but this was both surprising and disappointing. My most stable handheld camera is a 35mm Leica, another rangefinder. So I had high hopes for GF670, but there's something about this folder+rangefinder+medium format combination that makes me less stable. Could be the (lack of) weight relative to its size with extended bellows? Just wanted to share.

xya · Aug 7, 2020

Neil Grant said:
...I now have one of these as a 'pocket' camera. It has a 75mm f/3.5 lens, shutter to 1/300 sec and uncoupled RF. I've got a few questions that owners may be able to help answer.
1. after the shutter is cocked, is it possible to change 'speed' without causing damage?

I would not do so. in case of, block light from the lens and release shutter at the lens. then change speed and cock again.

Neil Grant said:
2. what is the longest exposure time for reliable hand-held photography?

1/15 with a steady hand, 1/30 if you are not sure

Neil Grant said:
3. mounting modern 'circular' filters via step-down ring? I have a bunch of 49mm HMC bw 'contrast' filters, but the lens is not threaded - only pushfit.

there are push-on filter holders. you can then use adapters towards the size you want

Neil Grant said:
4. is there some sort of interlock that blocks multiple exposure or winding-on without exposure?

yes there is. but you can release the shutter at the lens without using the shutter release of the body. can be repeated as often as you want.

Neil Grant said:
Thanks if you can help.

you are welcome. for some information on the camera http://www.120folder.com/agfa_isolette_III.htm

R.Gould · Aug 7, 2020

I don't own that camera , but I have many folder's, The advice I was given is always set the shutter speed, on both Compur and prontor shutters,2 I have hand held down to 1/2 second, very easy to hand hold folders with leaf shutters gown to low speeds, certainly you can count on 1/15 second 3 Filters, never leave home without Blu tak or similer in your pocket with these folders, I have never used stepping rings, I prefer blu tak and just 1 filter (Orange) for all my old cameras,except for my Tlr's which all take B1,4 exposure prevention interlock, some do and some don't, I have a agfa Issolette which doe's not have an interlock, only sure way to find out is to try it and see, wind camera, set shutter, fire it, set shutter if it fires it has no interlock, Enjoy it these old cameras are great fun and can produce great photos
Richard

MattKing · Aug 7, 2020

If you are used to something like a 35mm SLR, you probably should adjust your approach to the camera.
They reward a slow steady squeeze of the shutter release with one hand, while the other hand is used mostly to hold the camera.
The two cameras I have that are closest to the Isolette are a Kodak Tourist and a Voigtlander Baby Bessa. Their configuration is quite different, so I need to hold them and use them in somewhat different ways.
But 1/25 is do-able, with the right approach.
People who do target shooting with rifles have a number of routines that increase accuracy. They involve approaches to balance, tension reduction and careful breathing. You can re-purpose them nicely.

Helge · Aug 7, 2020

JPD said:
1. Set the shutter speed before cocking the shutter. Always.
2. 1/25 sec.
3. It's mure fun to have the proper size push-on filters and sun shade. They can be found cheap.
4. It has double exposure prevention.

The manual: https://www.cameramanuals.org/agfa_ansco/agfa_isolette_iii.pdf

Has the camera been serviced? The Agfa Isolettes more often than not have frozen focusing rings and leaky bellows.

You’d think they would mention such an important thing in the manual? ;-)

It would also be very stupid and bad human factors, even by 50s standards to have the user be unable to change the speed if he changed his mind about the composition, or the light changed.

It’s solely the 500 speed, where it’s inadvisable to try to force the shutter off or into the 500 speed once cocked.

If desperate. Trigger the shutter with your palm firmly over the lens, but not touching. And then reset shutter and trigger on the hatch, near the shutter.

JPD · Aug 7, 2020

Helge said:
You’d think they would mention such an important thing in the manual? ;-)

It would also be very stupid and bad human factors, even by 50s standards to have the user be unable to change the speed if he changed his mind about the composition, or the light changed.

It’s solely the 500 speed, where it’s inadvisable to try to force the shutter off or into the 500 speed once cocked.

It's possible to change the shutter speed while it's cocked, but you'll put strain on a pin in the retard gear train that presses against the speed cam. It's riveted in place and you don't want it to wear out, bend or break.

True about the highest speed setting on the Compur and Compur-Rapid, but the OP's Isolette has a Prontor.

Helge · Aug 7, 2020

JPD said:
It's possible to change the shutter speed while it's cocked, but you'll put strain on a pin in the retard gear train that presses against the speed cam. It's riveted in place and you don't want it to wear out, bend or break.

True about the highest speed setting on the Compur and Compur-Rapid, but the OP's Isolette has a Prontor.

Well It acts very smoothly when you turn the speed dial after cocking, and it's mentioned nowhere in any of the manuals to the cameras that use the shutters.
But you sound like you know the inside of these little machines..
Let me try this:
- Would you say it's worth firing the shutter into your palm if you forget to set it correctly?
- Or should you just set it to the desired speed anyhow, and try to remember to do it correctly the next time?

JPD · Aug 7, 2020

Helge said:
Well It acts very smoothly when you turn the speed dial after cocking, and it's mentioned nowhere in any of the manuals to the cameras that use the shutters.

But they didn't know or think that these shutters would still be in use after 50-100 years. Also, many bellows cameras have a spring loaded latch that keeps the camera closed. It's a good idea to press the button for the latch when you close the camera to cause less wear. Same for camera backs that function in a similar way.

Let me try this:
- Would you say it's worth firing the shutter into your palm if you forget to set it correctly?
- Or should you just set it to the desired speed anyhow, and try to remember to do it correctly the next time?

Yes, you can cover the lens and fire the shutter. But the Isolette III has double exposure prevention, so you must fire the shutter on the shutter itself instead of pressing the shutter release button on the camera body. After that you should be able to set the correct speed and use the shutter button.

Helge · Aug 7, 2020

JPD said:
Yes, you can cover the lens and fire the shutter. But the Isolette III has double exposure prevention, so you must fire the shutter on the shutter itself instead of pressing the shutter release button on the camera body. After that you should be able to set the correct speed and use the shutter button.

Yes, but is the wear on the mechanism so severe that you should do that every time you forget to set the shutter in the correct sequence?

If it’s just once a roll, is it ok?

Or should you take really good care and fire the shutter into you palm every time you forget?

I’m thinking that for various reasons many of these cameras never saw the use they where actually build to withstand before breaking.
And saw very little use in the years after the original owner put them in a closet or passed them on.

You can usually see if a camera has been heavily used or not.

If the OEM never made a big deal out of it, is it time we did now?

flavio81 · Aug 7, 2020

Neil Grant said:
2. what is the longest exposure time for reliable hand-held photography?

I had the 6x9 folder with the Solinar 105/4.5 lens. I had some sharpness issues due to some factors:

- For me, it wasn't easy to hold the camera steady because it isn't as ergonomic as a 35mm camera.

- The shutter release itself, or the shutter itself, caused vibrations that twisted the focus ring a little bit during exposure. MORAL: The focus helicoid needs some hard grease so it doesn't move at all during exposures.

BTW, for Prontors and Synchro-Compur you can change the speeds without damage if you're on slower speeds (say, 1/60 and slowers. If your shutter has the 1/500 speed, you should select it before cocking the shutter.

Helge · Aug 7, 2020

flavio81 said:
I had the 6x9 folder with the Solinar 105/4.5 lens. I had some sharpness issues due to some factors:

- For me, it wasn't easy to hold the camera steady because it isn't as ergonomic as a 35mm camera.

- The shutter release itself, or the shutter itself, caused vibrations that twisted the focus ring a little bit during exposure. MORAL: The focus helicoid needs some hard grease so it doesn't move at all during exposures.

BTW, for Prontors and Synchro-Compur you can change the speeds without damage if you're on slower speeds (say, 1/60 and slowers. If your shutter has the 1/500 speed, you should select it before cocking the shutter.

I think Agfa got you there. ;-)

Why do you set the limit at a 60th? It doesn’t seem there is something mechanically different up to 250.
Like there clearly is something different with 500 and some actual clockwork escapement from 5th of a second and down.

JPD · Aug 7, 2020

Helge said:
Yes, but is the wear on the mechanism so severe that you should do that every time you forget to set the shutter in the correct sequence?

If it’s just once a roll, is it ok?

Or should you take really good care and fire the shutter into you palm every time you forget?

I’m thinking that for various reasons many of these cameras never saw the use they where actually build to withstand before breaking.
And saw very little use in the years after the original owner put them in a closet or passed them on.

If the OEM never made a big deal out of it, is it time we did now?

I'm sure it's fine to do it sometimes, but it's good to remember: Set the speed and aperture - cock the shutter and fire. It just to reduce wear. Many cameras cock the shutter when you wind it, like many Rolleiflexes and Kodak Retinas, and it's fine to set the shutter speed then, with the shutter cocked. It would have been impractical if you had to set the shutter before winding the film. But for the cameras where you must cock the shutter separately it's a good idea to set the speed first and then cock. It's not the end of the world if you set the speed after cocking sometimes.

You can usually see if a camera has been heavily used or not.

True. But an Agfa camera can look mint but have leaky bellows and dried up, glue-like, grease. The shutter could be good, though.

JPD · Aug 7, 2020

Helge said:
Why do you set the limit at a 60th? It doesn’t seem there is something mechanically different up to 250.
Like there clearly is something different with 500 and some actual clockwork escapement from 5th of a second.

Maybe he thought of the intermediate settings on Compur and Compur-Rapid shutters? You can set the shutter between the numbers from 1 to 1/10 sec and then from 1/25 up to the next to fastest speed. If you set it between 1/50 and 1/100 you get 1/75 sec. You can't set it between 1/10 and 1/25 because there's when it couple/uncouples the gears for the longer speeds (if I remember correctly).

Helge · Aug 7, 2020

JPD said:
Maybe he thought of the intermediate settings on Compur and Compur-Rapid shutters? You can set the shutter between the numbers from 1 to 1/10 sec and then from 1/25 up to the next to fastest speed. If you set it between 1/50 and 1/100 you get 1/75 sec. You can't set it between 1/10 and 1/25 because there's when it couple/uncouples the gears for the longer speeds (if I remember correctly).

Really‽ That is very interesting! I never knew.

I always thought that it would just “knife edge” flip between the two speeds at some point.
Do you remember how the speeds are actually controlled? I mean what type of mechanism?

flavio81 · Aug 7, 2020

JPD said:
Maybe he thought of the intermediate settings on Compur and Compur-Rapid shutters? You can set the shutter between the numbers from 1 to 1/10 sec and then from 1/25 up to the next to fastest speed. If you set it between 1/50 and 1/100 you get 1/75 sec. You can't set it between 1/10 and 1/25 because there's when it couple/uncouples the gears for the longer speeds (if I remember correctly).

Yes, i dissasembled the compur-rapid of my agfa and could see that there was a range of speeds in which changing the settings when the shutter was cocked would just shift positions on a governor and thus won't do any damage or wear. And I think this started on some mid-slow speeds like 60/50 or 30/25.

Neil Grant · Aug 8, 2020

...thanks for all the advice and info. It's easier to understand things whilst fiddling around with the camera. It does have a 'blocking' safety mechanism and 'red dot' indicator, though the manual at 'buktus' makes no mention of the indicator. My camera lacks the depth-of-field indicator surrounding the supply-spool, instead only an DIN Speed reminder. The Prontor shutter seems to have a pair of switches related to flash-synch when only one would surely do, but i envisage only continuous exposures with this camera anyway.

JPD · Aug 8, 2020

Helge said:
Really‽ That is very interesting! I never knew.

I always thought that it would just “knife edge” flip between the two speeds at some point.
Do you remember how the speeds are actually controlled? I mean what type of mechanism?

The intermediate settings were often mentioned in older manuals, but not in manuals for cameras with Synchro-Compur, so maybe it doesn't work for these. I think it's better if someone who has more experience than me with working on these shutters answer your question.

I recommend Chris Sherlock's channel on Youtube. He repairs mainly Kodak Retina cameras, but he has also videos of him working on other cameras and shutters: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBNcopU34d_pGsKTvRzHcsg/videos

Helge · Aug 8, 2020

JPD said:
Also, many bellows cameras have a spring loaded latch that keeps the camera closed. It's a good idea to press the button for the latch when you close the camera to cause less wear. Same for camera backs that function in a similar way.

Absolutely agree! I have and always will push down the release latch when I close the camera. I mean why not? If not for direct abrasive wear, then it could break from metal fatigue.
Not a part you are realistically ever going to come upon or have the time to install.
Same with the spring loaded struts of some cameras that was advertised as "instant and quick", and people interpret that as permit to let the hatch flip open at full thrust with no bracing or care.
1. That was probably never the case back then. the "quick" part was in comparison to the older non self erecting folder.
2. The mechanism and softer materials like glue and leather is over 50 years old.
3. People in the 50s took care of their things to whole other degree than people of today. No one would og should ever feel good about letting the struts and the bellows snap open with the force possible in especially the Agfa folders.

People lacking mechanical empathy and forethought just shouldn't be allowed to own and operate old cameras.

Apart from the often completely disqualifying bellows and grease issue of the Agfa folders, they are actually tremendously well build for their class.
The most important constructional aspect of a folder, and often the thing wrong with all other folders than the Zeiss Ikon and Isolette folders, the standard and struts, that ensure as good lens and film plane parallelism as possible, is reason enough to prefer the Agfa folders.
The whole erection mechanism is strong and clicks into place in a manner totally missing from for example Voigtländer or Kodak folders.

JPD · Aug 8, 2020

Helge said:
Absolutely agree! I have and always will push down the release latch when I close the camera. I mean why not? If not for direct abrasive wear, then it could break from metal fatigue.
Not a part you are realistically ever going to come upon or have the time to install.
Same with the spring loaded struts of some cameras that was advertised as "instant and quick", and people interpret that as permit to let the hatch flip open at full thrust with no bracing or care.
1. That was probably never the case back then. the "quick" part was in comparison to the older non self erecting folder.
2. The mechanism and softer materials like glue and leather is over 50 years old.
3. People in the 50s took care of their things to whole other degree than people of today. No one would og should ever feel good about letting the struts and the bellows snap open with the force possible in especially the Agfa folders.

People lacking mechanical empathy and forethought just shouldn't be allowed to own and operate old cameras.

Apart from the often completely disqualifying bellows and grease issue of the Agfa folders, they are actually tremendously well build for their class.
The most important constructional aspect of a folder, and often the thing wrong with all other folders than the Zeiss Ikon and Isolette folders, the standard and struts, that ensure as good lens and film plane parallelism as possible, is reason enough to prefer the Agfa folders.
The whole erection mechanism is strong and clicks into place in a manner totally missing from for example Voigtländer or Kodak folders.

I agree. And retro cameras have become popular again, much thanks to the internet and that many young people want something more to photography than just clicking away on their smartphones. I hope the beginners read on forums like this, and don't hesitate to become members to ask questions. It's better to ask even the simplest question than risking to break things.

The Agfa Isolette and Record folders are very good and plentiful, simple construction and fun shooters. Some people repair them and give them new home made bellows, but I sometimes with that a camera manufacturer took on themselves to make a few thousands of new good bellows for these cameras as spare parts. Someone made new third party cocking racks for the Retina Ib/B, IIc/C and IIIc/C cameras, so why not? (Yeah yeah, money and all that).

The Zeiss Ikon Ikontas are sturdy indeed. The East Germans made their versions, the Ercona/Exona 6x9 cameras, and they are equally sturdy. I agree that Voigtländer could have made a better job. I have a 6x9 Bessa with rangefinder, and if you forget to set the focus to infinity before you close it you'll bend the arm going from the focus mechanism on the body and the front standard. It's a very nice camera, but is has its design flaws.

Neil Grant · Aug 8, 2020

[QUOTE="Apart from the often completely disqualifying bellows and grease issue of the Agfa folders, they are actually tremendously well build for their class.
The most important constructional aspect of a folder, and often the thing wrong with all other folders than the Zeiss Ikon and Isolette folders, the standard and struts, that ensure as good lens and film plane parallelism as possible, is reason enough to prefer the Agfa folders.
The whole erection mechanism is strong and clicks into place in a manner totally missing from for example Voigtländer or Kodak folders.[/QUOTE]

...the front standard certainly locks into place firmly. A small degree of imperfect parallelism may passed in-noticed for much 'general' photography - the plane of sharp focus won't be quite parallel to the film plane (Schleimplug). Structural integrity and film flatness are probably more important.

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