Agfa-Gevaert commitment to film production

Jacques D. · Feb 28, 2008

Yesterday, Agfa-Gevaert announced :

"(Agfa-Gevaert NV) will further strengthen its position as a consolidator within the industry through cost leadership and operational excellence in film manufacturing and will continue to develop innovative products for new growth areas."

While Agfa-Gevaert does not sell film directly to consumers, this is good news anyway. Rollei ATP, Superpan 200 a.o. are manufactured by Agfa-Gevaert.

http://www.agfa.com/en/co/news_events/press_archive_months/press_releases/CO20080227_CC_Q4_UK.jsp

Jacques

Aurelien · Feb 28, 2008

Well, there is one thing I don't understand: Agfaphoto is dead. Agfa gevaert is still alive, and coating. Agfa gevaert sells their films to rollei. So why Agfa Geavert can't keep on producing APX 100 and 400, and sells it to Rollei for the distribution? Why making a new superpan that will replace the two films? This point, clearly I don't understand !

Mick Fagan · Feb 28, 2008

And they are to continue with their phased demerger in 2008, quite interesting.

Mick.

ath · Feb 28, 2008

Aurelien said:
Well, there is one thing I don't understand: Agfaphoto is dead. Agfa gevaert is still alive, and coating. Agfa gevaert sells their films to rollei. So why Agfa Geavert can't keep on producing APX 100 and 400, and sells it to Rollei for the distribution? Why making a new superpan that will replace the two films? This point, clearly I don't understand !

Superpan is not new. New is, that it is available in 35mm casettes for non-military use.
I guess there is simply not enough demand for a film only used by artists.
Even the new technical pan is mainly used as surveillance film by gouvernment.

haris · Feb 28, 2008

Aurelien said:
Well, there is one thing I don't understand: Agfaphoto is dead. Agfa gevaert is still alive, and coating. Agfa gevaert sells their films to rollei. So why Agfa Geavert can't keep on producing APX 100 and 400, and sells it to Rollei for the distribution? Why making a new superpan that will replace the two films? This point, clearly I don't understand !

Something I don't understand is why they simply don't continue to produce and sell APX films? Why they have to sell through Rollei at first place?

Ian Grant · Feb 28, 2008

haris, I think this is because the plant was already manufacturing the aerial films before Agfa Photo's collapse, the APX films were made elsewhere. Even if they had the formulae they wouldn't have the experience to immediately manufacture APX type film without R&D and trials.

One problem with the repackaged Agfa-Gevaert - Rollei film is it isn't cheaper than existing Ilford, Fuji and Kodak B&W films and offers photographers no real advantages, except for a Tech Pan alternative.

Ian

Jacques D. · Feb 28, 2008

Aurelien said:
Well, there is one thing I don't understand: Agfaphoto is dead. Agfa gevaert is still alive, and coating. Agfa gevaert sells their films to rollei. So why Agfa Geavert can't keep on producing APX 100 and 400, and sells it to Rollei for the distribution? Why making a new superpan that will replace the two films? This point, clearly I don't understand !

With the disinvestment of their "consumer division" in 2004 (Agfaphoto), which produced APX, Scala etc., Agfa-Gevaert decided to concentrate on 3 "business lines" : Graphics Division, Medical Division and "Special Products Division" a.k.a. "Materials division". This division makes all kinds of film for industrial and technical use, but no films for "consumer" use (i.e. both amateur and professional photographers). Industrial and technical use includes surveillance, aerial photography etc. E.g. Superpan 200 is Aviphotpan 200 (aerial film) and is basically Scala but with increased infrared sensibility... I suppose they do not restart APX-production because there is no industrial or technical use for it and they absolutely do not intend to re-enter the consumer market directly.

PS : Adox is planning to restart APX25/100/400 production. In the meantime APX100/400 is still readily available as Agfaphoto APX100/400 and Rollei Retro 100/400.

Jacques

Jacques

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 28, 2008

I think they might be avoiding some legal (potentially) grey area concerning the old product names, and the usage of the AGFAPhoto name. Probably not too surprising to re-cut some existing aerial products for limited 35mm usage. While not really the AGFA of the past, it is nice to see they are doing this.

The supply of APX100 is far from exhausted. Also, the Rollei Retro 100 is quite easy to get, despite the price. It would make no economic sense to re-introduce APX100 simply to compete with existing supply, or to compete with Rollei . . . after all Rollei got the APX film from AGFA; wouldn't they be pissed if AGFA suddenly re-introduced APX100 and competed with them directly . . . in other words, what would be the point?

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography

AgX · Feb 29, 2008

HerrBremerhaven said:
I think they might be avoiding some legal (potentially) grey area concerning the old product names, and the usage of the AGFAPhoto name.

Seen all that hazzle about the rights on the brand `AgfaPhoto´ I wonder if any of the parties involved really knows who has got the rights of former Agfa-Gevaert AG (Leverkusen) product names or even formulas...

ADOX Fotoimpex · Feb 29, 2008

APX films

it´s not so much a matter of rights or know how.
It´s simply a matter of actually geting down to it. Putting the money on the table and starting a production.

Agfa Belgium is operating in very large markets. Coating a bit more of an exisiting product and selling the surplus into the consumer market through another company is an easy job. It does not cost anything and helps controling overhead costs. This is interesting business to Agfa. Going through all the effort of reintroducing products formerly made in Leverkusen isn´t exactly what they see as their job.

At least this is the impression I have. We at ADOX are trying hard to make things work only in the consumer market because we want to provide products for a long term without beeing dependant on other markets with an uncertain future.
Who needs traffic surveillance, printing house or X-Ray film 10 years from now ?

As for right now it is impossible to compete against the stock Agfa Leverkusen left behind. So anyone putting out a similar or identical film will have a tough time with current base and silver prices.

We are trying to shedule our projects to hit the right timeframe to be ready to go when stocks run out.

Best regards,

Mirko

AgX · Feb 29, 2008

Mirko,

I agree with you concerning your first two points.

But isn't remaking a product once existing just looking back into the past?

Ian Grant · Feb 29, 2008

Mirko, I think you summed up everything very well, thank you.

Interestingly many X-rays are now made digitally, but then output to a thermal silver film because that's what the doctors need.

Ian

Uncle Bill · Feb 29, 2008

Mirko,

Sounds logical to me, I am willing to wait for the new Adox "APX" 100 and 400 when the Agfa stocks dry up.

Bill

Chazzy · Feb 29, 2008

Uncle Bill said:
Mirko,

Sounds logical to me, I am willing to wait for the new Adox "APX" 100 and 400 when the Agfa stocks dry up.

Bill

I would be more interested in Agfapan 25. Apparently it was legendary, but I never got around to trying it before it was discontinued.

David Grenet · Mar 1, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Mirko, I think you summed up everything very well, thank you.

Interestingly many X-rays are now made digitally, but then output to a thermal silver film because that's what the doctors need.

Ian

Or the hospitals don't have a proper PACS system and the digital images only stay in the system a few months. Film is used for archiving.

Very few hospitals use film in their X-Ray machines these days - it's either digital capture or a reusable plate which is then scanned with a laser of a specific colour...

Uncle Goose · Mar 1, 2008

I read in the newspaper yesterday that Agfa Gevaert Belgium will fire another 160 employees because of the ongoing sales problems. And more might follow. It's mainly desk jobs they will get rid off.

AgX · Mar 1, 2008

In those papers I don’t read anything on film, but rather about shareholders accusing Agfa-managers of mismanagement.

Those people who are going to be loose their job are situated in those two trendy subgroeps...

ADOX Fotoimpex · Mar 4, 2008

Isn't remaking a product once existing just looking back into the past?

I think this very much depends on the reason why the product disappeared from the market and how long this is ago.

In case of our "project-products" (MCP, MCC, APX) all of them are still in the channel and we try to keep them there.

I suppose no one will disagree that the reasons for the closing down of the AgfaPhoto plant in Leverkusen were complex and intransparent.

They certainly did not go into liquidation because of reasons related to the quality of their black and white assortement.

So I would disagree with you in this specific case.

Best regards,

Mirko

Aurelien · Mar 4, 2008

My only wish would be to keep APX 100 in production, and the resurection of APX 25, for films. I think APX 400 is less important since there are equivalent on the market: foma 400, hp5, triX, bergger 400.
Actually, there is a market for slow films like rollei 25, so the return of APX 25 would be a real benefit for photography. But there is one condition: Adox brand will have to be better distributed. If no, there is no relevance to produce such products if we can only buy them on one website!

Jacques D. · Mar 4, 2008

AgX said:
In those papers I dont read anything on film, but rather about shareholders accusing Agfa-managers of mismanagement.

QUOTE]

Agfa-Gevaert's problems are in their Graphics and Medical divisions. Their "Materials/Special Products"-division, where film is made, is relatively doing well.

Jacques

AgX · Mar 4, 2008

Jaques,

That's what I meant with those `trendy´ subgroups.

Mirko,

I do not doubt the quality of Agfa's papers. And I appreciate the risk of the entrepeneur you took by trying to re-make these papers. (There are so many people here at Apug whining about products disappearing, but few to take initiatives...)

But time goes on, why reinventing the wheel? (I must admit though, through my historic interest I am looking back a lot of time myself...)

Uhner · Mar 4, 2008

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
In case of our "project-products" (MCP, MCC, APX) all of them are still in the channel and we try to keep them there.

I think you have chosen some of the right products to reintroduce.

All best with this endeavour,

Claes

Jacques D. · Mar 5, 2008

AgX said:
But isn't remaking a product once existing just looking back into the past?

First of all, I like that a lot of good products, some of them old(er) ones, stay on the market. Therefore it is good to see that Adox/Fotoimpex keeps old Adox (made by Efke) available, as well as OrWo NP15 (Adox Pan 25) and will do so for Agfa APX25/100/400. For the same reasons it is good to see that Maco brings replacements for Technical Pan (ATP), Scala (Superpan 200) as well as OrWo NP15 (Rollei PAN 25).

On the other hand it would also be nice to see some totally new products, but who is going to be ready willing and able to do so? Kodak? Fuji? Ilford? Agfa-Gevaert? Foma?

Kind regards,

Uncle Goose · Mar 5, 2008

Jacques D. said:
On the other hand it would also be nice to see some totally new products, but who is going to be ready willing and able to do so? Kodak? Fuji? Ilford? Agfa-Gevaert? Foma?

Kind regards,

I only see Ilford and Fuji and Adox capable of releasing new stuff. Agfa dropped out a few years back and Kodak has to struggle to keep it's head up in the film business.

I would die to see a film with a 6 ISO speed (yeah keep dreaming).

Ian Grant · Mar 5, 2008

There's Adox as in Mirko/Fotoipmex who will re-introduce former Agfa products perhaps improving them on the way,and then EFKE, who happen to manufacture some of the Adox products. Could EFKE manufacture new products, probably not, but we are forgetting Foma who have emerged stronger more recently.

Ian

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