Agfa Copex Rapid or Rollei Retro 80S: development regime in Rollei RLC?

GLS · Mar 6, 2019

Hi,

So I have 5 rolls of Copex Rapid in 120 coming from Macodirect, as well as 1L of Rollei RLC to try and develop it with (I couldn't source any Spur Modular UR new). I also have several rolls of Retro 80S in my fridge that I'd like to try with RLC. However, I can't find a development regime & EI to use for either film with RLC. Rollei publish times for 80S with various of their developers, but not for RLC, which seems odd as although not technically a document film it has the hallmarks of one.

Has anyone used either of these two combinations and could give me a good idea of what to start with? Just for the record, I also have Pyrocat-HD, 510pyro, Rodinal and DD-X available in my cupboards.

Thanks.

subsole · Mar 6, 2019

No experience with Rollei RLC.
The Retro 80s works pretty well in ADOX Atomal 1+1 (13min, agitation every 15 sec , 20°C).
Shoot it at 50 ASA.

trendland · Mar 6, 2019

GLS said:
Hi,

So I have 5 rolls of Copex Rapid in 120 coming from Macodirect, as well as 1L of Rollei RLC to try and develop it with (I couldn't source any Spur Modular UR new). I also have several rolls of Retro 80S in my fridge that I'd like to try with RLC. However, I can't find a development regime & EI to use for either film with RLC. Rollei publish times for 80S with various of their developers, but not for RLC, which seems odd as although not technically a document film it has the hallmarks of one.

Has anyone used either of these two combinations and could give me a good idea of what to start with? Just for the record, I also have Pyrocat-HD, 510pyro, Rodinal and DD-X available in my cupboards.

Thanks.

Hi GLS,

there is a simple reason for you can't find times of RolleiRLC to Retro80s.....!

It is real easy to understand if you notice the name of the Rollei Developer : LC is for "low contrast"

and that means : REAL LOW Contrast (for microfilms)

well Agfa Copex Rapid is a so called dokument film = KGB used it , other agencies were familiar with it, pharmacies had it in use (hight tech of the midt. 80th).
Today Rollei and others recomand Copex for Photography and bundle it with special developers.

Retro80s is an aereal film with highest resolution, from my point, but it is no microfilm= it has nearly normal contrast.

with regards

trendland · Mar 6, 2019

That would mean (sorry I forgot it to state) : In the past you would have used Tetenal Neofin Doku
to develop Agfa Copex AND you would have used Tetenal Neofin Blue for Retro80s - understand?

with regards

PS : The Kombination last mentioned is indeed not so bad.
To Neofin Doku is to said = discontinued (but it is a recipe published if I remember right).

GLS · Mar 6, 2019

OK thanks for the recommendations.

I also ordered 7 rolls of Rollei ATP 1.1 in 120, so I can always use the RLC for those (with the published times). However, I found out that this film is now discontinued, so even if I like it I shouldn't get too attached

trendland · Mar 6, 2019

GLS said:
OK thanks for the recommendations.

I also ordered 7 rolls of Rollei ATP 1.1 in 120, so I can always use the RLC for those (with the published times). However, I found out that this film is now discontinued, so even if I like it I shouldn't get too attached

You shouldn't bought ATP 1.1 in bigger scales BEFORE it become discontinued - because you should
have bought ATP 1.1 in highest scales 3 - 4 years ago (extreme niced priced).
If I remember correct at about 2,- € a 135-roll ! And in 120 nearly same price (20pack)!
The time as Copex was avaible under 3,- Euro from Rollei.

Reasons : 1) overproduction ?????

I was sure at this time - the reason was more : lowest demand!

Later you paid 2 - 3 times more for this low demand films!

with regards

PS : It must be a very good high res. Film! I personaly remember ATO 2.O (the calculation was with Rollei in concern with the expensive deceloper = cheap offerings to ATO 2.0 + make money with
high priced developer)

But for ATO 2.O some alternate "cheapest" developer I found - so I ordered "just" their film!

with regards

GLS · Mar 6, 2019

trendland said:
because you should
have bought ATP 1.1 in highest scales 3 - 4 years ago (extreme niced priced).

I wasn't even shooting film then

destroya · Mar 7, 2019

RR80 works very well in pyro-hd/pyro-m. I shoot the film at 40. develop in pyro-m 72 degrees (22.2 c) for 14 min. agitate for 1 min initially, then 3 inversions every 3 min. its a great combo.

if you need more speed from it, then you can mix up some beutler. simple formula that you can get a speed of 64 or 80 depending on the light. its not a fine grain developer, but the film is very fine grained. the benefit is that's its a slightly low contrast developer so it works well to tame the film as its a high contrast film to begin with.

trendland · Mar 7, 2019

destroya said:
RR80 works very well in pyro-hd/pyro-m. I shoot the film at 40. develop in pyro-m 72 degrees (22.2 c) for 14 min. agitate for 1 min initially, then 3 inversions every 3 min. its a great combo.

if you need more speed from it, then you can mix up some beutler. simple formula that you can get a speed of 64 or 80 depending on the light. its not a fine grain developer, but the film is very fine grained. the benefit is that's its a slightly low contrast developer so it works well to tame the film as its a high contrast film to begin with.

Well - Beutler is a good aproach to Rollei Retro 80s for sure (beside other aproaches) :

And it is real cheap (and superious) B.T.W.

Part A : water.............................400ml
metol.................................5g
sodium sulfite.................25g
water to make...............500ml

Part B : water..............................400ml
sodium carbonate...........25g

So there should be a first decision with Retro80s where your preference is!

Is it in direction of high resolution or more in regard of finest grain ?
Or do you perhaps prefer sharpness ? (edge effects)?

These characteristics are NOT allways 100% the same.....

To come to extreme finest grain and much much resolution (better than in comparison to Delta100
at ISO 50/better in comparison to PanF at ISO25 - from my point) the aproach with metol developers
of the sort Ilford Perceptol/Microdol-x/D23 is the finest!
(Others made other experience - like so often- but I guess one can state : "Perceptol is real superior
for Retro80s!")
But if your ppreference is more in regard of extrem sharpness (like with Neofin Blue) one of the best
ways is with Beutler. (Neofin Blue is expensive today - but we will not forget that Tetenal need suport
these days)....…...Beutler should be quite identical if I remember correct!
And with Beutler/Neofin Blue you also get extreme finest grain and much sharpness!
(Perceptol will give a bit finer grain in comparison and a very little more/precise resolution)

But at last remember :

1) edge effects will generaly NOT create resolution.
2) to notice differences between this two aproaches you will need enlargements from excellent
darkroom workflow with expensiive lenses.
3) you also need a format from enlargement > 60 x 90 cm better is 100 x 120, best is with
100 x 140 cm (with 35mm film)

Because with max. possible prints there is a real difference.

with regards

trendland · Mar 7, 2019

Perhaps I mixed Beutler again (like so often before) with a Neofin Blue derivate formulation ?

Never mind - Beutler (Willy Beutler) created some great developers in the 40th/50th before Tetenal
put the stamp of his formulations.

Hope he was royally rewarded !

with regards

GLS · Mar 7, 2019

destroya said:
RR80 works very well in pyro-hd/pyro-m. I shoot the film at 40. develop in pyro-m 72 degrees (22.2 c) for 14 min. agitate for 1 min initially, then 3 inversions every 3 min. its a great combo.

Hmmm, I did try Pyrocat-HD once with RR80S. Shot at EI50, developed in 1:1:100 at 20 C for 14 mins with Sandy King's "minimal agitation" method (continuous for first minute, then 10 seconds at each of the quarter, half and three-quarter points of development). The contrast was still extreme. Admittedly it was a very clear, sunny day, which won't have helped, but there really was virtually no detail in the shadows at all. Perhaps the temperature was too low. The sky also was a bit splotchy for my liking (not sure if due to the developer, or the film itself). See below for an example:

GLS · Mar 7, 2019

trendland said:
Well - Beutler is a good aproach to Rollei Retro 80s for sure (beside other aproaches) :

Thanks. I may order the ingredients for it at some point (I'm a research chemist, so I have easy access).

trendland said:
To come to extreme finest grain and much much resolution (better than in comparison to Delta100
at ISO 50/better in comparison to PanF at ISO25 - from my point) the aproach with metol developers
of the sort Ilford Perceptol/Microdol-x/D23 is the finest!
(Others made other experience - like so often- but I guess one can state : "Perceptol is real superior
for Retro80s!")

Another one to think about. I was curious to try Perceptol at some point anyway.

trendland said:
Neofin Blue is expensive today - but we will not forget that Tetenal need suport
these days

Indeed. £20 to develop 6 rolls of 120 is even more expensive than stock DD-X!

trendland · Mar 7, 2019

GLS said:
Another one to think about. I was curious to try Perceptol at some point anyway.

Yes the point with Perceptol is that you have a lost of a full step in speed!
Many others don't like this.

I have no problem with speed from bw films since??? If I just remember correct ?

I guess it was the year 1978!! (first tripod)!

I would more go into the direction of pull developers ! [exeption is avaible light].

That would mean my interist is not so much to come with Delta400 to ISO 800 - ISO 1600.
But my curiosity is the following : What are Delta100 characteristics at ISO25!

Therefore Perceptol is the No. 1 because you can reach just ISO 50 with ISO 100 films.
And with step1 pull developement you are at ISO25 at once!

The disadvantage (not to me) is that such films have low contrasts (pull development) and
special Delta100 will louse a lot of its original tonals at ISO25!

But with bw (just to me) it is aceptable - because you can reach such smallest grain with 35mm
films that you may have the impression : "It must be 120film!!!!"

Yes - but it isn't! Some state that it is not for them! Because they still shot 120films (me too!)!

But it is allways the same :" It must be 4x5 inch " (it is ecactly looking like [from finest grain])!

My answer is allways also the same : Yes of course (it looks like) But it IS 120film!

with regards

trendland · Mar 7, 2019

Last word to tonal/contrast lost in general - it isn't soo dramaticaly !

But for tonal "entosiasts" it may be a No Go ! I can't say but I have an idea in this direction!
So they are much fruststed - perhaps!

Retro 80s is from its original conception an ISO 40 film (I have an idea of that)
So Rollei decided (with development recomandation/times) to push development with
Retro80s (because LOW SPEED films are a bit "unpopular" today!)

You may notice that kind of unpopularity from many recomandations in direction of developer
film combinations that "gives full speed to the film/that gives more speed to....."!

Well and if you decide to pull Retro80s to come to ISO 20 (the half speed wich the film design is made for) you may compare it with Adox CMS20 (microfilm at ISO20).

What is a film (CMS20) with " nearly simular characteristics in comparison of your Copex"!

with a very exact and accurate workflow to microfilms they have the most resolution you can geht from films.
But it is much dependable. So - if your workflow with microflims and special developers is lousy what is not the same that you are a "louser in darkroom" because some real experts have a tough time with microfilms (and nowbody indeed nowbody has reached the parameters of microfilms
gigabitfilm has published - because it has been "theoretically parameters) - so if that is the case to you : You are no louser!

And here is my conclusion : Retro80s with described workflow (and excellent accurate workflow)
is superior in comparison to All kind of microfilms (from lousy workflow)!

With following restriction - this is " just" in concern of RESOLUTION !

Because it is also designed for Has anYb purpose of microfilms with the difference that it was for air
reconnassaince ( there you have had the need of max.resolution concerning smalest details photographed from high altitudes).

In concern of finest grain microfilms allways will win in comparison to all other films.

But also this issue will depend : Has anybody tryed to push microfilms with Rodinal here ?
To come to ISO 200?

!

with regards

PS : I guess some special Photrio followers did it!

destroya · Mar 7, 2019

GLS said:
Thanks. I may order the ingredients for it at some point (I'm a research chemist, so I have easy access).

Another one to think about. I was curious to try Perceptol at some point anyway.

Indeed. £20 to develop 6 rolls of 120 is even more expensive than stock DD-X!

you can mix up the home brew percptol formula and it works well. i get a speed of 25 when I use perceptol. I just prefer the results I get with pyro better. give it another try. you almost have to treat this film like its slide film, so extreme contrast scenes will be difficult to expose properly

GLS · Mar 21, 2019

Leaving bespoke options aside for the moment, I've ordered some Neofin Blue to try with the RR80S. The included data sheet shows pretty absurdly short development times though for this film (as little as 2 minutes!).

This just leaves options for the Copex Rapid. I contacted SPUR and was told their Modular UR New developer is discontinued. Instead they recommended their new, improved Dokuspeed SL-N for this film, but I can't find much info at all online for it (too new maybe?). I guess I can act the guinea pig and order some, but it certainly isn't cheap....

GLS · Mar 25, 2019

So I ordered some of the Dokuspeed SL-N to try out, and Heribert has thrown in some free Acurol-N and the latest HRX formulation for me to try as well. Pretty generous!

So many new developers to try, so little time....

Agfa Copex Rapid or Rollei Retro 80S: development regime in Rollei RLC?

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