Agfa brown toner: What's a good dilusion?

firecracker · Jul 7, 2006

What's a good dilution to use this product? I've never used it before, but I've just got five of the last remaining bottles from the store I usually go to yesterday.

They are small bottles, but I'm assuming if I dilute enough, they will last for a while or at least can be used for a large volume of prints that needs a slight tonal effect.

ann · Jul 7, 2006

the new verison ratio is 1:24 the old version 1:50 but i have read of people using up to 1:200

it can be used at wide variety of ratios and more interesting is the fact that the higher the ratio the more effective and the more rapid the toning .

This toner needs to be stopped or it will continue to tone as it washes. You can use a HCA bath or a 10% solution of sodium sulphite for this purpose.

The same is true of Kodak's Brown toner.

be sure you have good ventilation as these toners can be very smelly

Mark Layne · Jul 7, 2006

Two drops in a bucket of water and check it after each meal.
You get the idea.
It seems to work (eventually) even at high dilutions. I suspect the stronger concentrations were found to enhance toner sales.
Mark

Petzi · Jul 7, 2006

I can send you a PDF data sheet for Agfa chemicals where the use of Viradon is described.

Ole · Jul 7, 2006

Ann has given the answers: It works at any concentration, but the end result depends on the concentration.

It must be "stopped" with sodium sulfite, or the toning will continue in the wash (ending in insipid pale tones as the concentration decreases).

Outdoors use only - my wife complains that my hair stinks for a week after I've used it!

dancqu · Jul 7, 2006

ann said:
the new verison ratio is 1:24 the old version
1:50 but i have read of people using up to 1:200

This toner needs to be stopped or it will continue to
tone as it washes. You can use a HCA bath or a 10%
solution of sodium sulphite for this purpose.

The same is true of Kodak's Brown toner.

The bottle contains polysulfide in water solution.
Perhaps some one else knows if it is ph adjusted
or has other additives. I don't know why the poly
is used over a plain sulfide; plain sulfide as used
to re-develope with bleach then sulfide toners.

The IPI gives reasons for using the polysulfide
but they hinge on the large commercial use
in toning of microfilm.

I've not sulfide toned as such but do use the
ST-1 test for which I compound the solution myself.
That test will "tone" any print which has not been
well fixed. I'll try something simple one of these
days; place a small print in a dilute ST-1
solution and see what happens.

I've not noticed any odor from that solution. The
odor is H2S, hydrogen sulfide, which is some what
toxic. I can only wonder what goes into the off the
shelf polysulfide toners that causes an odor. Perhaps
the poly is unstable. Sodium sulfide plus sulfur equals
sodium polysulfide; Super Sulfide! Acidification will
generate the gass. But why do that?

BTW, sulfur is also soluble in sodium sulfite. In
the "stop" sulfite bonds with sulfur and so effectively
removes it from solution. Sulfite + sulfur = fixer. Dan

firecracker · Jul 8, 2006

I see. Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll try and see how it does.

One more question: The stop bath suggested here is "HCA", meaning Hypo-Clear Agent/Wash Aid, right? Is the working solution for the HCA/WA the same as the normal solution used for the paper after the fix?

Also, before going to the final touch with a selenium toner, do I need to wash the prints for a certain amount of time?

If the HCA is used, I'm assuming there's at least 5 (to 20) mimutes of a wash to remove the HCA properly. I think I used to only wash the prints for 5 minutes in running water after using the color-toner, stop down the process, and then put them in the selenium toner.

I've color-toned before using other products, but I never really used the Hypo-Clear Agent for that purpose. So, I just want to be sure that I'm getting this right before starting.

firecracker · Jul 18, 2006

I've tested a few prints. I used 500ml of water and 1 to 5ml of the toner to on my Oriental VC FB 8x10 prints that went through Dektol, Hypam Fixer, and, Wash Aid.

I noticed some changes in the color, but they all turned out rather red-purple in a few minutes. I'm assuming this is the effect I could get on this type of paper, which is said to be neutral/cold-tone to begin with. But I wonder if there's a way to make the use of brown-toner for coloring real brown on this particular paper.

Is there any way to warm up the color of the tonal effect? If the dilution makes it, I'll do what's suggested on the label, but that doesn't seem to do it.

Is there any chemical I can add in the toning bath? Or should I start from scatch by printing on different papers using different chemicals, etc?

P.S. I've just ordered the copy of "The Darkroom Cookbook" today, and hopefully that will help me gain knowledge on this toipic a bit.

Ryuji · Jul 18, 2006

Mark Layne said:
Two drops in a bucket of water and check it after each meal.
You get the idea.
It seems to work (eventually) even at high dilutions. I suspect the stronger concentrations were found to enhance toner sales.

I disagree. I make my toners from scratch, but the versions I like the most contains about 20g/L of liver of sulfur. It's about equivalent to KBT 1+11. Toning time can be short, but it gives me good blacks and pleasing brown. With greater dilution and longer toning time, I tend to get more yellowish, orange brown and it may not be good for all images.

I also reuse the toner solution.

Another thing is that I have a new formula that reduces (not removes) the smell and also reduces the risk of staining some paper base. I'm not sure if it ever gets manufactured by Digitaltruth but I'm thinking about some way of making it available.

Ryuji · Jul 18, 2006

firecracker said:
I noticed some changes in the color, but they all turned out rather red-purple in a few minutes. I'm assuming this is the effect I could get on this type of paper, which is said to be neutral/cold-tone to begin with. But I wonder if there's a way to make the use of brown-toner for coloring real brown on this particular paper.

Is there any way to warm up the color of the tonal effect? If the dilution makes it, I'll do what's suggested on the label, but that doesn't seem to do it.

Is there any chemical I can add in the toning bath? Or should I start from scatch by printing on different papers using different chemicals, etc?

Oriental and Ilford neutral/cold papers tend to go purplish in polysulfide toners. The best all-purpose paper for toning was AGFA Multicontrast (both RC and FB) but it's all gone from market now. I'd suggest Fortezo or Polywarmtone developed in fresh Dektol 1+2 dilution for no less than 2 minutes or Tektol Standard 1+9.

You can prepare strong solution of liver of sulfur (10-30g/L) and dissolve about 0.5g/L of selenium powder to get even greater range of hue variation and also much more rapid toning action.

Ryuji · Jul 18, 2006

Polysulfide is a better toning agent with greater convenience, longer shelf life and greater procesing capacity. Sodium sulfide solution is not stable and solution needs frequent replacement. Polysulfide solution is also not very stable but better than monosulfide.

Other suggested reactions below do not occur to any appreciable extent at room temperature in range of concentrations used in darkroom processing.
Reactions of chalcogen elements (S, Se, Te) are quite different from reactions of metals and other elements. It's pretty complex.

dancqu said:
The bottle contains polysulfide in water solution.
Perhaps some one else knows if it is ph adjusted
or has other additives. I don't know why the poly
is used over a plain sulfide; plain sulfide as used
to re-develope with bleach then sulfide toners.

The IPI gives reasons for using the polysulfide
but they hinge on the large commercial use
in toning of microfilm.

I've not sulfide toned as such but do use the
ST-1 test for which I compound the solution myself.
That test will "tone" any print which has not been
well fixed. I'll try something simple one of these
days; place a small print in a dilute ST-1
solution and see what happens.

I've not noticed any odor from that solution. The
odor is H2S, hydrogen sulfide, which is some what
toxic. I can only wonder what goes into the off the
shelf polysulfide toners that causes an odor. Perhaps
the poly is unstable. Sodium sulfide plus sulfur equals
sodium polysulfide; Super Sulfide! Acidification will
generate the gass. But why do that?

BTW, sulfur is also soluble in sodium sulfite. In
the "stop" sulfite bonds with sulfur and so effectively
removes it from solution. Sulfite + sulfur = fixer. Dan

firecracker · Jul 19, 2006

Ryuji said:
Oriental and Ilford neutral/cold papers tend to go purplish in polysulfide toners. The best all-purpose paper for toning was AGFA Multicontrast (both RC and FB) but it's all gone from market now. I'd suggest Fortezo or Polywarmtone developed in fresh Dektol 1+2 dilution for no less than 2 minutes or Tektol Standard 1+9.

You can prepare strong solution of liver of sulfur (10-30g/L) and dissolve about 0.5g/L of selenium powder to get even greater range of hue variation and also much more rapid toning action.

Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll try those options you mentioned and also do some sepia-toning to see how the prints will turn out. I'll probably stick to the same paper (Oriental) though.

And I've just got the Darkroom Cookbook today, and it just gives me so much more on this in details. Wonderful.

Agfa brown toner: What's a good dilusion?

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