Agfa APX 100 does exist!

marcmarc · Feb 10, 2014

Whatever this film may be, my test roll looks promising. I no longer have my notes for developing APX from 10 years ago so I used the MDC suggestion of 11.5 minutes for iso 50, Rodinal 1+50. So far the film looks fine. I've never used out of date film before so I'm not sure what to look for in this regard, but my test roll appears normal, no hazy look or other abnormalities that might suggest a QC or age issue. I'll make a few prints later in the week.

newtorf · Feb 10, 2014

Regarding film expiration date, I happen to come across an interesting post on l-camera-forum not long ago: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...7-thoughts-10yo-frozen-tri-x.html#post2574245

"I was on the Ilford factory tour recently and the 'use by' dates came up in
the Q&A session.

As I recall even if film is unrefrigerated Ilford say under normal
conditions (not in the glove box of a hot car in the tropic's) film should
last fifteen years beyond the sell by date before anybody should worry. The
date is so dealers can turn around their stock efficiently. So a roll in the
desk drawer isn't going off, neither is the roll in your least loved camera
, unless you really hate it...

I don't like the idea of unused film regularly going in and out of the
fridge at the end of a days shooting simply because the idea of expansion
and contraction comes into my mind. And I've never re-refrigerated sheet
film because I worry about condensation forming inside the open packet, but
new and sealed it lives in the fridge."

NB23 · Feb 10, 2014

Obviously, the expiry date serves the dealers. Without an expiry date, the stocks would never move as fast and it would be very bad for business.

This is also the logic behind papers NOT having an expiry date. Papers move much slower. An expiry date would kill the business as the papers would almost always be past date. This is why, when a paper is fogged, the stores will take it back "no questions asked" (if it's returned within the regulated 15-30 days, depending on the country).

Richard S. (rich815) · Feb 10, 2014

NB23 said:
Obviously, the expiry date serves the dealers. Without an expiry date, the stocks would never move as fast and it would be very bad for business.

Perhaps though I remember in the day often watching for and buying short dated or recently expired B&W emulsions from local shops (remember them?) for about half price all the time. Certainly at a loss or perhaps close to. Way less profit at least...

mgb74 · Feb 10, 2014

NB23 said:
Obviously, the expiry date serves the dealers. Without an expiry date, the stocks would never move as fast and it would be very bad for business. ...

Interestingly, I've heard exactly to opposite to explain why paper isn't dated. That by having dates, the freshest paper would be purchased and inevitably some paper would be left on the shelf until expired.

MattKing · Feb 11, 2014

The requirements for "process before" dates may flow partially from ISO 9000 (among others) certification requirements.

In addition, the manufacturers have their own measures of acceptable tolerances. They may be willing to apply updated "process before" dates to newly packaged material based on those tolerances.

marcmarc · Feb 11, 2014

I never realized that paper has no exp date. While I keep my film in my freezer, I have no room for paper so it stays in a closet which still gets quite warm in the summertime.

Today I did more research on Agfa APX 100 and it appears that the last of the final batch made by the original Agfa sold out about a year or two ago and the new APX (which I apparently bought) is Kentmere 100

AgX · Feb 11, 2014

NB23 said:
Obviously, the expiry date serves the dealers. Without an expiry date, the stocks would never move as fast and it would be very bad for business.

This is not obvious to me at all.
How do expiry dates help move stock?
A decent seller would stock from behind. A batch number would be beneficial for this. He does not need expiry dates though.

By the way, best before date would be better than expiry date.

Xmas · Feb 11, 2014

AgX said:
This is not obvious to me at all.
How do expiry dates help move stock?
A decent seller would stock from behind. A batch number would be beneficial for this. He does not need expiry dates though.

By the way, best before date would be better than expiry date.

Easy question I always ask if there is any 'post date' film and if the price is good buy the lot...
Haggle about short date...
Many(ok some) of our dealers cold store film even if it only a cellar.

AgX · Feb 11, 2014

If he can't sell enough that means in hinsight that he ordered too much.
Expiry dates rather benefit the manufacturer in case of a too big inventory att ther dealer. The dealer has to give a rebate on the price. The manufacturer may sell a bit more film. But as the dealer would stock less, the increase in revenue for the manufacturer would be smaller than thsat rebated volume.

So I still do not understand how experiry dates could be beneficial for the dealer.
To the contrary: withoút such dates the dealer just could Keep that old stock on his shelves and would not have to sell it with a rebate.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 11, 2014

the new APX (which I apparently bought) is Kentmere 100

Please, read again my posts on the first page.
You didn't get the "new formula" or it would say so on the package.
Besides the "new formula" APX 100 and 400 have an expired date of 2018 onwards.

AgX · Feb 11, 2014

marcmarc said:
Today I did more research on Agfa APX 100 and it appears that the last of the final batch made by the original Agfa sold out about a year or two ago...

At least over here APX 100 was not sold out. Batches dated 2015 just come to the shelves when the new formula APX 100 (and APX 400) were announced.

railwayman3 · Feb 11, 2014

marcmarc said:
.

Today I did more research on Agfa APX 100 and it appears that the last of the final batch made by the original Agfa sold out about a year or two ago and the new APX (which I apparently bought) is Kentmere 100

Can you please quote your exact source confirming that the new APX is Kentmere 100 ? It would be interesting to compare the technical date sheets.

Harman have always been quite adamant that the do not supply their own brands (Ilford and Kentmere) as own label products.

pdeeh · Feb 11, 2014

There is never a shortage of people who claim to know what one film or another "really" is (witness the recent threads on Rollei RPX25 & Retro 400S) ... but when asked for evidence for their certainty, it never seems forthcoming ...

miha · Feb 11, 2014

Richard S. (rich815) · Feb 11, 2014

miha said:
...

+1

marcmarc · Feb 11, 2014

I meant to say that based on what what I've been reading from people in Europe who are involved with film manufacture and distribution it appears that the new APX is Kentmere. I of course cannot confirm this; I'm just stating what the heresy is, so apologies for my poor choice of words. I've used Kentmere 100 before and found it to be a perfectly good film at it's price point. The fact that Kentmere films are not made in 120 and neither are the new APX films does make me consider the possibility. The bottom line is I thought when I saw these rolls in the store that this was the "new" APX that I heard was going to someday be re-issued on the market. I had heard that Agfa's coating equipment was bought along with the patents for their products and scaled down for smaller coating runs to address the shrinking market for film. So that's what I thought I was buying: Fresh APX that more or less was the same as the original. If it's older stock from ten years ago, well, I would have liked to have know that before making the purchases, but as I mentioned, my first roll looks pretty good.

pdeeh · Feb 11, 2014

WHICH "people in Europe who are involved with film manufacture and distribution" ?

AgX · Feb 11, 2014

The former head of Maco.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 11, 2014

I wonder how someone from Maco would know what is going on with Agfaphoto/Lupus Imaging.
The best is to ask Simon Galley from Harman and accept whatever answer he gives.

Marc
If you want fresh APX 100, it does exist and it is called ADOX Silvermax 100.
It isn't identical to APX 100, but it is based upon it. It can be reversed to give B&W slides.
Have a look around the forum for further info.

AgX · Feb 11, 2014

Because this man has been making and selling photosensitive materials for decades and been dealing until recently with the other players.
This does not make him credible per se. But reveals a position where would know for sure.

railwayman3 · Feb 11, 2014

marcmarc said:
I meant to say that based on what what I've been reading from people in Europe who are involved with film manufacture and distribution it appears that the new APX is Kentmere. I of course cannot confirm this; I'm just stating what the heresy is, so apologies for my poor choice of words. I've used Kentmere 100 before and found it to be a perfectly good film at it's price point. The fact that Kentmere films are not made in 120 and neither are the new APX films does make me consider the possibility. The bottom line is I thought when I saw these rolls in the store that this was the "new" APX that I heard was going to someday be re-issued on the market. I had heard that Agfa's coating equipment was bought along with the patents for their products and scaled down for smaller coating runs to address the shrinking market for film. So that's what I thought I was buying: Fresh APX that more or less was the same as the original. If it's older stock from ten years ago, well, I would have liked to have know that before making the purchases, but as I mentioned, my first roll looks pretty good.

Having toured the Harman factory, I am quite sure that they could easily produce Kentmere 100 (any other B&W formulations) in 120 size if it were economic....after all the production of their own less used 120 films, such as Pan F, is done successfully, as well as their special orders of large format films, etc. It's rather odd logic to suggest the absence of Kentmere and the absence of new APX film in 120 size proves that the 35mm versions are the same film!

Rudeofus · Feb 13, 2014

railwayman3 said:
Having toured the Harman factory, I am quite sure that they could easily produce Kentmere 100 (any other B&W formulations) in 120 size if it were economic....after all the production of their own less used 120 films, such as Pan F, is done successfully, as well as their special orders of large format films, etc. It's rather odd logic to suggest the absence of Kentmere and the absence of new APX film in 120 size proves that the 35mm versions are the same film!

If you look at the portfolio of other reputable film coaters, you will see the same pattern: "consumer film" is available only in 35mm format, while "professional film" is available in larger formats, too. Ilford seems to make this distinction with their brands "Kentmere" and "Ilford".

Xmas · Feb 13, 2014

A coating machine makes long lengths of film.
Cutting it up makes any width you have cutters for.
Snipping it needs different packing robots.
Retailers buy the finished product.

Ilford used to make

cine
220
daylight loads
darkroom loads

If there was demand they could do so again but there was no demand decades ago... so they stopped. The retailers only stock volume sales.

You won't have seen a daylight load unless you are well old.

AgX · Feb 13, 2014

Xmas said:
A coating machine makes long lengths of film.
Cutting it up makes any width you have cutters for.

Different formats often got different bases. That makes things a bit more complicated.

Agfa APX 100 does exist!

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