Again problems, but now with E6

Misko78 · Nov 2, 2016

Hey all, i'm having issues with E6 now. What can cause this pattern on slides. It's not scanning artefact as i can see it with loupe when slide is on light table. I use Jobo CPE2 without lift and i use E6 chems one shot only. My CPE2 is modified with super tight temperature control unit and it has a pump to circulate water. I've changed drums, lids, cores. Only thing that might be a culprit is a uneven rotation CCW is little bit slower than CW, and there is a slight wiggle of motor shaft so when drum spins it moves 5mm in both axis.

I've also attached one of older C41 scans, on badly exposed images this line could be seen, but what puzzles me is that this line is visible between frames as i said in previous thread. From now on I'm using a acetic acid stop bath and this problem is almost gone, almost because in really underexposed negatives and with some scanner tweaks you can find this artefact but otherwise it is not visible

georgegrosu · Nov 3, 2016

Faults that are seen in direct light go in prints or scans.
Faults that are seen only in reflected light, usually not go in prints or scans.
What can I find the images presented:
Appear different problems.
Velvia 50 in the picture, I see two perfectly straight stripes that separate different densities.
Here you can think is defects of film.
Ektar in the picture, I see a line with a small curvature, which is accompanied by parallel rubbing weaker.
Fault handling (so you can see and between frames).

In connection with the use of acetic acid as stop after development it is a good thing.
Film development stops.
If washing before bleaching is not good, developer traces (CD 3/4) can give defects on the film in the form of stains.
About other malfunctions developer can see here (for cine):
http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h24_08.pdf (page 38)

George

Misko78 · Nov 3, 2016

Thanks for the answer. and PDF file . One line is completely straight and that might be a film defect or something else, but the other one is not, so i guess processing defect.

I guess this could be it?
Curtains - Faint vertical streaks of non-uniform density - Improper developer turbulation. - Follow specifications for turbulation coverage, pressure, and frequency.

So when to apply acetic acid in E6 process, u use Fujihunt E6 chemicals:

20:00 Warm-up no prewash (should i use one?)
6:30 FD
2:00 Wash (4 changes of water)
2:00 Reversal
4:30 Color Developer
6:00 Bleach
6:00 Fixer
~4:00 Wash (I fill tank with 500ml of water, do 10 inversons, than empty tank into sink. I do that at least 10 times)
1:00 Stabilizer

georgegrosu · Nov 3, 2016

I assume that the malfunctions that occur are straight and continue generally is the problems with film or processing machine.
Faults less straight, curved, irregular are manual handling.
In general, prewash remove the compounds from the film.
Generally colored water comes out.
Different colors depending on the kind of film.
The water in the prewash will swells emulsion and will ease the process of diffusion
developing agent to developing centers.
Prewash, it protects a little developer.
Those components colored of film will no longer go in the first developer.
Risk is to dilute the developer with remaining water in emulsion, or even in dose.
With a processing machine, water transport is a few ml / meter of film.
When developed by hand, water (processing solution) retained in the film is somewhat higher.
Another problem may be the temperature of the developer.
If the prewash water does not have the same temperature with developer,
photographic result will be different.
You must test the prewash option and if you have good results you to use.
In principle, prewash should improve processing:
- Emulsion removes dust from cutting and punching;
- Swells emulsion and reduce the risk of spots / areas with different densities;
- Diffusion of the developer will be perfectly uniform in emulsion of film.
I repeat - tested prewash before.
Each person has a personal touch in the way the film develop by hand.
It would help a scan image + edge film.

George

Misko78 · Nov 3, 2016

Thanks again George, what about stop bath?

georgegrosu · Nov 4, 2016

I mention that I use to process color negative - process ECN 2 and for E6, a process compatible with E6, built by me.
When I started testing with E6 process, an information point was RVNP process.
http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h24_13.pdf
Regarding the stop, after developer, the stop certainly off the action of developer.
I use in my process compatible with E6 process a bathroom stop.
Developer agitation problems related to do not have to worry too much.
Each person (equipment) has a personal touch in film processing.
Maybe they're not big differences, but basically there are differences, even if we use the same system processing and the same processing chemicals.
The developer is a partial reaction - remaining phases are total reactions.
The developer shall comply time and temperature, and whether mechanized agitation - this is it.
At other stages of processing, overcoming (extra) time or temperature is not a serious problem.
If the developer agitation is done manually, you must be as reproducible every time.

George

markbarendt · Nov 4, 2016

I don't think that defects in film caused this, much more likely are the chemicals. Specifically the volume of the chemicals.

This could be even as simple as how fast chemicals were poured in. If any of the chemicals were poured into slowly it could cause uneven development. If the levels were not high enough to cover the phone properly it could end in uneven development.

jerrybro · Nov 4, 2016

Since you are using a CPE without the lift, I presume you are pouring chemical in the tank while upright, capping it, then placing it on the magnet. If so maybe some of the film is in contact with developer longer than others. What you may want too try is to get the tank spinning on the Jobo with the cover off and pour the chemical in using a long flexible funnel. I use my CPE with and without the lift. When doing BW I often go without, but always use it with color due to the short times involved.

georgegrosu · Nov 4, 2016

I have not ever worked with Jobo, and so I have no experience.
I said, we would help a scan to see and film edge.
We consider that Jobo was processing in a small amount of developer, as has been said before.
We should have the same defect on spiral circumference film more spira.
Misko 78, can you give us details about the fault on Velvia?
Failure is the only, or there are others in the same film?
The more details there will be a greater chance to find an explanation of the fault.
I personally have never seen a malfunction chemical (process) nature so right.

George

mshchem · Nov 5, 2016

Not sure what volumes of chemistry you are using . No need to use minimum quantities if you are reusing chemistry . I always use more solution than what Jobo recommends . You might try giving the tank a good shake to try to wet the entire film . Without a lift and short processing times you might be seeing an artifact of low volumes and uneven wetting . One more guess . I have a lift and a CPP2 , I always use extra solution volumes and crank the rotation to high when I add the developer .

I also prewet everything , I have a mixing valve so I flush the tank , fill it full with tempered water to bring everything up to temperature right now . You aren't going to hurt the film.Then I proceed right away . The Jobo recommendation of rotating the dry tank to preheat has always made me uncomfortable . Every tank I have ever owned leaks to some extent . I worry about small amounts of the bath water getting into the dry tank and effecting the film. I don't know .

I'm also a stop bath guy , but I have always followed the book on E6 never had a problem .

If it was easy everyone would be doing it
Best Regards Mike

Misko78 · Nov 8, 2016

georgegrosu said:
I have not ever worked with Jobo, and so I have no experience.
I said, we would help a scan to see and film edge.
We consider that Jobo was processing in a small amount of developer, as has been said before.
We should have the same defect on spiral circumference film more spira.
Misko 78, can you give us details about the fault on Velvia?
Failure is the only, or there are others in the same film?
The more details there will be a greater chance to find an explanation of the fault.
I personally have never seen a malfunction chemical (process) nature so right.
George

I can see this fault on some of my films not all, fault is in direction of rotation running on whole lenght of film but can be seen only on blue skies and really light areas. If there was less chemicals then it was supposed to be part of film would not be developed.

markbarendt said:
I don't think that defects in film caused this, much more likely are the chemicals. Specifically the volume of the chemicals.

This could be even as simple as how fast chemicals were poured in. If any of the chemicals were poured into slowly it could cause uneven development. If the levels were not high enough to cover the phone properly it could end in uneven development.

jerrybro said:
Since you are using a CPE without the lift, I presume you are pouring chemical in the tank while upright, capping it, then placing it on the magnet. If so maybe some of the film is in contact with developer longer than others. What you may want too try is to get the tank spinning on the Jobo with the cover off and pour the chemical in using a long flexible funnel. I use my CPE with and without the lift. When doing BW I often go without, but always use it with color due to the short times involved.

Yes, jerrybro my method is exactly as you've described, unfortunately I don't have lift and i need 8 seconds to pour in chemicals and attach tank back to drum and start rotating. High speed of my Jobo CPE2 is, what i have measured, 52 RPM, low speed is 25 RPM. I always use high speed because motor will stall on low speed sometimes.

mshchem said:
Not sure what volumes of chemistry you are using . No need to use minimum quantities if you are reusing chemistry . I always use more solution than what Jobo recommends . You might try giving the tank a good shake to try to wet the entire film . Without a lift and short processing times you might be seeing an artifact of low volumes and uneven wetting . One more guess . I have a lift and a CPP2 , I always use extra solution volumes and crank the rotation to high when I add the developer .
I also prewet everything , I have a mixing valve so I flush the tank , fill it full with tempered water to bring everything up to temperature right now . You aren't going to hurt the film.Then I proceed right away . The Jobo recommendation of rotating the dry tank to preheat has always made me uncomfortable . Every tank I have ever owned leaks to some extent . I worry about small amounts of the bath water getting into the dry tank and effecting the film. I don't know .
I'm also a stop bath guy , but I have always followed the book on E6 never had a problem .
If it was easy everyone would be doing it
Best Regards Mike

I don't reuse chemicals for E6 but i reuse for C41. For E6 I use 250ml of chemistry, recommended volumes are 240ml fro 1520 tank. Yes i'll start doing a prewet step from now on.

What about stop bath, do i need to use one after FD and one ofter CD, that is still not clear for me.

mshchem · Nov 8, 2016

If you are using 6 bath E6 you do a 2 min wash after 1 st developer , in the past some folks used acetic acid stop. You could do a 30 to 60 second stop, then wash . The nice thing about stop is it stops development instantly . You shouldn't need it after color developer .
When I run E6 I make 625mL batches (5 L divided by 8) I would consider using a larger volume than what Jobo says and reusing the solutions somewhat .
The first developer is a ordinary black and white type of developer so if stop makes you more comfortable try it .
Best Mike

Misko78 · Nov 22, 2016

OK, I've added prewash and stop bath after FD. Did couple of films and everything was fine. Yesterday it appeared again. Could low RPM be a problem, George sent me some scans of older books and there is a paragraph saying that differences in density could be solved with stronger (faster) agitation. Other option, suggested by Rudeofus, is to pour 500ml of solution and then do an inversion processing. Is 500ml too much for rotary processing, considering volume of the tank and suggested volume of 250ml. Will more than suggested volume cause problem with moving of chems in a tank.

richyd · Nov 22, 2016

I was plagued by vertical streaks processing E6 and C41 using a CPE2 without lift. I also tried stop bath and pre soaking but what I think has finally fixed it came from an explanation I discovered on another forum which fitted my experience. I couldn't work out how the streaks seemed to come from the edge of the film by the top of the tank. The explanation is that if you try to fill the tank too fast chemicals spill over the edge at the top of the filler well (where the chemicals drain out of when you turn the tank on its side) and you get a streak down the film. This made sense and I've only tried a few sheet films recently being careful not to fill too fast allowing all the chemical to flow down the centre hole and have not had the problem. I was trying to fill the tank as fast as possible for even timing but was in fact introducing a worse problem. Try it, I'm sure you will find an improvement.
\Richard

Misko78 · Nov 22, 2016

Thanks Richard, i'm certainly going to try that. I'm really pouring it in fast. 7-8 seconds from start to getting a tank on a magnet. I have streaks running on whole length of a film.

georgegrosu · Nov 23, 2016

Hello Milos,
I repeat, malfunctions that may occur due to faulty agitation generates slightly irregular photographic effects: trace, scum ....
In any case not perfectly straight line as you.
Your fault does not fit into any of the defaults presented in book.

George

Rudeofus · Nov 23, 2016

Misko78 said:
Thanks Richard, i'm certainly going to try that. I'm really pouring it in fast. 7-8 seconds from start to getting a tank on a magnet. I have streaks running on whole length of a film.

Richard's suggestion sounds very interesting, and I would like to add a few observations to his:

When you dodge and burn during enlargement of photographic paper, you can change exposure between two areas by quite a lot before it becomes apparent. If you put a coin on the photographic paper for just a fraction of the time you dodged in the previous situation, you will see clear artifacts. Therefore it doesn't matter that much, how quickly you fill your film tank, but liquid level must steadily progress from bottom to top, without any time periods where liquid level stays constant and below upper film edge.
When you pour liquid into Jobo tanks slowly, liquid runs down the funnel, through the center tube into the tank, while air escapes through the side gaps of the funnel inside the tank lid. If you pour too fast, liquid blocks these side gaps, air can no longer escape easily, and as a result the liquid you pour in backs up. This could well lead to short periods of time, where liquid level inside the tank stays constant, leading to the artifacts you see.

It would be well worth trying to practice filling that tank quickly but continuously. If this doesn't work well, you could try opening the tank in complete darkness, pour in the E6 FD, then close the tank lid and progress as you did before. Note, that E6 FD step is the only time critical step, so there is no need to do this with the other process bathes.

Misko78 · Jan 18, 2017

OK, i tried everything, even changed the motor for a new high torque one. Added elastic coupling to shaft so that the tank sits and rolls dead flat. And one big nothing, it appeared again. So if i have RTFM made by Jobo i would have answer to my problem.

D When processing film (without the JOBO Lift attached), manually invert the tank two or three times. This action ensures that the solution has covered all the films' surface quickly. Strike the bottom of the tank against the heel of your hand, or against the counter top to dislodge any 'air bells' (bubbles) on the film. Couple the tank to the processor.

The 'Minimum Volume' is not necessarily the volume you need to use for processing.
Consider the requirements of your specific chemicals, in combination with the specific film or paper being processed. Note extended dilution (if used). Be sure that the volume required for the square footage (or meters) is sufficient to properly process the amount of film or paper in your tank or drum.
If you are unsure of these requirements, check with the chemical or film manufacturer for their specifications. In all cases, if this volume required for the amount of film or paper is higher than the 'Minimum Volume', use the chemical manufacturer's requirements as your "minimum". Always compare these two figures and use the higher one as your "minimum."
When in doubt, use a higher volume of solutions.
The 'Minimum Volume' is just that, a minimum. Using more than a minimum amount will not harm virtually any process. Extra volume of chemicals will not "over develop" your film or paper. (Note, however, the precautions in the next section regarding processor limits.) If your film or paper is coming out "underdeveloped" it could be caused from too little volume of chemicals. If this is the case, extending the development time will not completely cure the "underdevelopment." Increase the volume of chemicals used. An excess volume of chemicals will not "over develop" your film or paper.
Never use a tank or drum loading that exceeds the processor's specifications.

So if using a magnet drive with 1500 tank conclusion is:

135 film 250ml +/- 10ml will develop 2 films without a problem because when you pour chemicals into tank, level of chemicals will be between the reels.
120 film 400ml +/- 10ml will develop 1 or 2 films without any problem, because it needs 400ml of chems to cover the reel completely. Use 400ml only for developers, other chemicals can be used at minimum volume of 250ml

Use the pouring technique advised by richyd in post #14

Misko78 · Jan 24, 2017

Update #2
In last couple of days I've developed more than 10 rolls of E6 and C41 120 films using method above. Films are nicely developed and without any issues.

Again problems, but now with E6

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