Affordable MF with WLF plus General MF Questions

ColdEye said:

Wow, can I also put a prism on a Yashica D??

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Yep. The finder parts are the same on both a D and a Yashica-Mat.

The prism is a Hasselblad NC-2. There is a Kiev prism of similar design. Both models have a mounting plate that simply unscrews. then the prism fits right into the opening of the focus hood... well it fits right in after you remove all of the folding pieces. There is a pin front and back holding these parts in. Take some photos first to see how the springs are hooked in if oyu plan to reassemble it some day.

I needed to shim the prism up about 1/4 inch (6mm) to get it to focus on the ground glass. Basswood from a model store did this fine. I don't know if the distance is related to my eyesight or not. Then just strong tape to hold the prism in place.

h.v. said:

I don't like the idea of buying an Autocord and then sending it to Mr. Bryan for it to be perfected. The result may be awesome, but this just seems very time consuming and complicated (especially when I keep hearing about how simple loading/rewinding is more of a pain). This may be rather lofty, but I kinda want it to just work properly and be in a good condition so that it'll last right out of the box, like my 35mm cameras.

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Don't be too intimidated by service. Karl serviced an Autocord for me which had a broken focus lever (my second Autocord - the first was intacted but not in great condition over all). It was relatively inexpensive and he had the camera back to me in 4 days including shipping. He actually repaired it and had it one the way back the day he received it. I can't speak highly enough about him.

I've had plenty of old 35mm cameras which required work. I did it myself in most cases but given how long it took and how much I learned along the way (ie how much I messed up), it would have been an order of magnitude more cost effective to send cameras to people who do these repairs regularly.

lesm said:

This is sage advice. When you're entering a new field like this it's very easy to get too much information, ask too many questions and end up thrashing around with no satisfactory outcome. To be honest, when you talk about wanting a perfect MF camera which you won't need to get serviced for 10 years but you only have a tiny budget it seems to me you're headed for disappointment. You might get lucky, but any of the experienced members here will tell you that's unlikely. Before you spend any money at all, I'd strongly urge you to follow Matt's advice. Look for a camera club, make friends at your local art school, talk to an art teacher from your local high school, ask at your local camera store, just do whatever it takes to find someone to help you with some hands-on experience. And if you have a decent library, ask them to get you some books on interloan, such as Michael Freeman's "Cameras and Lenses," which has a ton of information and lots of illustrations. Librarians are knowledgeable and usually really willing to help.

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I'm not looking for something perfect. Perfect would probably be a Rolleiflex...at least in the TLR field. To be honest, if a Yashica was built 50 years ago, and is still in working condition, I don't think it's out of line for me to expect at least 10 years with it still functioning properly. 35mm cameras seem more than happy to be old and still have life in them for years ahead. I would assume medium format isn't built to a lower standard which would allow them to fall apart easier.

As for finding someone that may own a TLR that can show me how it works, I can always try looking, but to be perfectly honest, I'm content learning the ropes myself. When I was learning about how to work an SLR, I relied heavily on research and opinions to narrow my search down to a camera. Now, I had a few people who already own an SLR so I could try playing with it, but to be honest, I hadn't even learned about apertures and ISOs yet, so I was still not sure on how to use it. I also didn't really get to play around with anything in-store. I made the best decision possible with the knowledge I had obtained, and thought it was extremely likely I'd enjoy the SLR I purchased, even though there would first be a learning curve.

I don't see how this would be any different with MF. Based on what I've read, the Mats and Autocords seem like fantastic, fun cameras. There are some worries and queries, and I think that's perfectly natural. I'm sure it will all make sense once I have a TLR in my hands and begin playing around with it. Until then, I want to know as much as I can about the camera before purchase, so I don't make the wrong decision.

Brian Legge said:

Don't be too intimidated by service. Karl serviced an Autocord for me which had a broken focus lever (my second Autocord - the first was intacted but not in great condition over all). It was relatively inexpensive and he had the camera back to me in 4 days including shipping. He actually repaired it and had it one the way back the day he received it. I can't speak highly enough about him.

I've had plenty of old 35mm cameras which required work. I did it myself in most cases but given how long it took and how much I learned along the way (ie how much I messed up), it would have been an order of magnitude more cost effective to send cameras to people who do these repairs regularly.

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I think that I'll keep that in mind if I obtain a camera not in full working order, but I really just want one that works right out of the box. No hassles to ship things out for repairs. Why can't it be that simple?

--

in addition to the question about 120 developing...I've read about the Yashica Mat 124G commonly having problems with flares and leaks sometimes. Has this been a problem for anyone?

These are cameras up to 60 years old, with unknown histories in most cases. I have a Rolleiflex that looks like crap but I know it was overhauled a year before I bought it, I know who overhauled it, and I know the guy's reputation. I have bought Autocords that look pristine which were useless except for parts. Look, a basic overhaul by Mark Hama, who is the premier Yashica-Mat guy in the US, will be $165 or so. Karl Bryan on an Autocord will be maybe $75 to $150. Either case, you WILL now have no hassles. Short of this, or short of knowing when a camera was last serviced and by whom, you will be taking a chance.

This is just how it is. I've worked on Yashica-mats, Autocords, and Rolleiflexes. Yashicas WILL wear out- the design is solid but the parts are medium quality. Minolta parts are better and the design is better. Rolleiflex parts ooze quality machining and casting, and they STILL wear out.

Seriously, this is what you should do: start following Autocords on Ebay. Look for either well-established camera dealers or people with 25-200 sales of assorted cameras and other things. Check feedback. Ask about the lens specifically, is it clean, no scratches, no fungus. This gives you leverage if they were lying. Be patient. Bid no more than $125, max, and only on a sweet one. Eventually, one day, you will win one. When it arrives, check the lens. If the lens is clean, box it right back up, send it to Karl Bryan. Wait less than a week, and NOW you have what you want: a hassle-free camera straight out of the box.

Again, these cameras are old. Be patient, be thorough, and be realistic.

Yashicas- internal reflection (info applicable to many cameras; I flocked my Autocord, also)- http://www.flickr.com/groups/yashica_tlr/discuss/72157622734630140/
Door seals being gummed up and needing replacement, you contact Jon Goodman, he sends you parts and instructions for $10 or less, you get dirty for fifteen minutes, problem solved-
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/sealreplacement.html

There is so much camera-specific information out there that getting answers to all questions about any possible model will become a never-ending thread. You want info/answers about specific cameras, start a new thread with the camera name in the subject line.

I have a Yashica D that I bought from a forum member here for a REALLY good price, and I am very happy with it. It works nicely and is a joy to use. You might not want to deal with forum members for whatever reason you have (that is fine, I also had the same aversions first, but some of the best deals you can get are from people in forums like this. As for the flare a hood will minimize it, that was the first accessory I purchased for my TLR.

I have two medium-format cameras, both with waist-level finders. One is a Yashica 635 (an older cousin of the Yashicamat 124), the other a Mamiya RB67. I've used them both for street photography, although I prefer to use a 35mm with a wide-angle lens for that sort of work. I rarely meter when doing street photos, usually I just go with the sunny 16 rule, and adjust my aperture if I go from sun to shade. My observations include the following:

- The Yashica is very quiet, while the RB is rather loud (that mirror is huge). The 635 has a knob wind (as opposed to a crank), and shutter cocking is a separate operation from winding, making it a little slower but again quieter.
- With either of these cameras, double exposures are easy to do accidentally if in a hurry - which sometimes happens in street photography!
- Scale-focusing or zone-focusing is easier with the Yashica TLR, in my opinion, because there is a nice focus scale where the RB has that bellows scale on the side, much harder to read distance from (but the RB lenses have DOF preview).
- I used a monopod with my RB for a while, until the camera BENT the attachment screw - more a symptom of a cheap monopod than the camera, but still the weight helped make that happen. The Yashica is definitely easier to carry for long periods of time.
- In my own experience the RB67 attracts attention. People have asked if I am filming a movie, or if I'm working for the local newspaper, and once I was even asked if I was insurance adjuster (huh?). The TLR is noticeable too but it seems to get a friendlier response.

Dan Daniel said:

These are cameras up to 60 years old, with unknown histories in most cases. I have a Rolleiflex that looks like crap but I know it was overhauled a year before I bought it, I know who overhauled it, and I know the guy's reputation. I have bought Autocords that look pristine which were useless except for parts. Look, a basic overhaul by Mark Hama, who is the premier Yashica-Mat guy in the US, will be $165 or so. Karl Bryan on an Autocord will be maybe $75 to $150. Either case, you WILL now have no hassles. Short of this, or short of knowing when a camera was last serviced and by whom, you will be taking a chance.

This is just how it is. I've worked on Yashica-mats, Autocords, and Rolleiflexes. Yashicas WILL wear out- the design is solid but the parts are medium quality. Minolta parts are better and the design is better. Rolleiflex parts ooze quality machining and casting, and they STILL wear out.

Seriously, this is what you should do: start following Autocords on Ebay. Look for either well-established camera dealers or people with 25-200 sales of assorted cameras and other things. Check feedback. Ask about the lens specifically, is it clean, no scratches, no fungus. This gives you leverage if they were lying. Be patient. Bid no more than $125, max, and only on a sweet one. Eventually, one day, you will win one. When it arrives, check the lens. If the lens is clean, box it right back up, send it to Karl Bryan. Wait less than a week, and NOW you have what you want: a hassle-free camera straight out of the box.

Again, these cameras are old. Be patient, be thorough, and be realistic.

Yashicas- internal reflection (info applicable to many cameras; I flocked my Autocord, also)- http://www.flickr.com/groups/yashica_tlr/discuss/72157622734630140/
Door seals being gummed up and needing replacement, you contact Jon Goodman, he sends you parts and instructions for $10 or less, you get dirty for fifteen minutes, problem solved-
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/sealreplacement.html

There is so much camera-specific information out there that getting answers to all questions about any possible model will become a never-ending thread. You want info/answers about specific cameras, start a new thread with the camera name in the subject line.

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Seriously? You expect me to throw out another $100+ to get it repaired, not to mention shipped all the way out to the U.S.A.? I will still be taking a chance if I send it to this Karl or Mark person, will I not? I mean, something could happen during the shipment process, and even without that, the camera is still going to wear. I don't see why I'd need to shell out that kind of money and just ship it right back out if the camera comes as advertised (full working condition, the kind I'm seeking). If it works, why bother? If it doesn't, I can ship it back to whomever sold me it and get my money back.

I never realized medium format was such a frustration. I thought it would be fun to learn about something different, but the more I read, the more it seems like a hassle and annoyance, despite the really cool cameras.

h.v. said:

Seriously? You expect me to throw out another $100+ to get it repaired, not to mention shipped all the way out to the U.S.A.? I will still be taking a chance if I send it to this Karl or Mark person, will I not? I mean, something could happen during the shipment process, and even without that, the camera is still going to wear. I don't see why I'd need to shell out that kind of money and just ship it right back out if the camera comes as advertised (full working condition, the kind I'm seeking). If it works, why bother? If it doesn't, I can ship it back to whomever sold me it and get my money back.

I never realized medium format was such a frustration. I thought it would be fun to learn about something different, but the more I read, the more it seems like a hassle and annoyance, despite the really cool cameras.

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The attitude is a bit off-putting. It seems like you feel entitled to the help you're getting in this thread, rather than thankful.

In any case, that's a massive generalization. Medium format in itself is not a frustration. Neither are the cameras. By all means, buy a camera and it will most likely work. These things are all built to last. However, if you want an optimal shooting experience, you'd do well to get your camera serviced. I've been on both sides of the fence - I sent my Leica M6 off for service promptly after receiving it, but my newly acquired Mamiya RB67 is a beater and it's running just fine without the help of a technician. It's really up to you. If you're pressed for cash, skip the repairs and hope for the best.

If you do decide to opt for repair, it needn't be in the States. There are plenty of people in Canada that could help. Most people on the forum seem to be American, so they suggest what they know. Everyone's just trying to help.

Note that is is true of all mechanical cameras, not just medium format. If you've never needed to service your 35mm cameras, great. Consider yourself lucky. Maybe your luck will continue with a TLR.

My apologies if I was coming off harsh in any way. I don't feel entitled to information and opinions from you guys on APUG, but I do hope for a response, that's all. I'm just getting frustrated because the medium format process (both buying and actually using) seems so complicated, frustrating, time-consuming, and money sucking...which I wasn't expecting. It actually reminds me of when I was starting out with SLRs.

dpn said:

I'm well on my way to breaking the replacement lever, unfortunately. The quick release plate on my tripod bends the replacement focusing lever if I forget to take the camera off of the tripod before changing film. This has happened a few times due to my sheer stupidity, the metal feels weaker, and I'm waiting for my replacement focusing lever to break. Totally my fault. Frustrating all the same.

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Suggestion: contact Karl with photos and a description. I bet he could modify your lever to avoid the problem.

For example, the focus scale is sort of a luxury. It could be removed or cut back, the focus knob and bend repositioned, etc. (If you decide to remove the focus scale, realize that the two screw hole for the screws that hold it on actually go all the way through to the film chamber. Be sure to put the screws back in place or plug the holes another way. Those light leaks drove me crazy on one overhaul until I reailzed that the holes went through.)

As was mentioned the Ricoh Diacord is a real gem, it looks a lot like the Minolta. I have had mine for about 4 months. I have a handmeter but the meter in the camera is still quite good. Only problem for me was loading film to get the counter reading one. I finally just took a roll and with the back open figured it out. As others said, finding a club or someone local to handle and get the feel of the camera would answer a lot of your questions.

David

Forgot to mention, the craiglist ads can be very risky here. The few times I have bought I always requested a very public meeting place, due to the fact you are dealing in cash and a total stranger.

David

You want one that's right straight from the start? Mark Hama sells already refurbished Yashicas with a six month warranty. They're in the $450 range. I know you couldn't afford the one here so that's out too. Maybe save up for a while. You get what you pay for.

EDIT: Mark's ebay store doesn't list any right now but this is his:

http://stores.ebay.com/Lakesuwa-Camera-Store?_rdc=1

I've corresponded with him and he's quite helpful, and can let you know if he has one that'll soon be ready to sell but, again, at about $450 or so best I remember. Or you can do what I did and take your chances and buy something that's probably fine. Mine works fine but the film transport squeaks a little. May just need some lube, don't know, but it's just a squeak right now (and only with film in it.) If it dies I'll buy the next good one I find or one already refurbed by Mark and then have him fix this one.

It's not inherently frustrating but you seem determined to make it frustrating or to be frustrated.

Why would I be determined to make things frustrating? Do you think I enjoy the frustration? If push comes to shove, I can always save for longer and then come up with $450, but I'd rather not. I am not one to just throw all my money at photography, as I have other interests and obligations. It just seems rather annoying that I need to buy one, have it shipped to me, and immediately ship it out to someone in another country for even more money. With 35mm, I can expect to buy it and have it work right away. I realize 35mm is not medium format, but I didn't think that there would be this much to it. That and there seem to be annoyances with developing the film as well as just changing a roll after you've done your measly 12 shots. It's just more than I "signed up" for, but I'm sure that upon purchasing, and learning through using the equipment, it'll eventually be easy.

Oh, and thanks for the Ricoh and Ebay suggestions/links.

h.v. said:

Why would I be determined to make things frustrating? Do you think I enjoy the frustration? If push comes to shove, I can always save for longer and then come up with $450, but I'd rather not. I am not one to just throw all my money at photography, as I have other interests and obligations. It just seems rather annoying that I need to buy one, have it shipped to me, and immediately ship it out to someone in another country for even more money. With 35mm, I can expect to buy it and have it work right away. I realize 35mm is not medium format, but I didn't think that there would be this much to it. That and there seem to be annoyances with developing the film as well as just changing a roll after you've done your measly 12 shots. It's just more than I "signed up" for, but I'm sure that upon purchasing, and learning through using the equipment, it'll eventually be easy.

Oh, and thanks for the Ricoh and Ebay suggestions/links.

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As I said, the need for repair is the same across 35mm and medium format. It's not that medium format cameras are in constant need of repair, it's just that it's a good idea to ensure that older cameras such as the ones mentioned in this thread are in good working condition. If you have older 35mm cameras and you're fine with the condition, you'll likely be fine with a medium format camera of the same age.

My honest suggestion would be to do exactly that - wait and save little more before jumping in.

At 250 dollar budget, your choices are limited. At 450 dollar budget, you have much wider selection and potentially a system camera in good condition. Medium format isn't frustrating. Developing film is no different - just a tad bigger reel and double the developer. Yes, you have only 15, 16, 12, 10, 8 or less frames per roll but then mentality in shooting is different. Think - compose - rethink, meter, set, rethink, recompose, and fire. I have hard time finishing 15 frames sometimes.

If you hang around APUG, you'll see various MF cameras come and go in classified section. You can have a Rolleicord in great shape for about your budget. (I know because I bought and eventually sold mine here for that price range) You could also find all kinds of system cameras, like Mamiya, Bronica, etc. Personally, I prefer shopping here than anywhere else.

Good luck. Remember, folks here are trying to help you.

If the camera is advertised as being in fully working order and it arrives as such, it seems rather pointless to throw money away to have repairs that aren't needed. Does every camera have something wrong with it that every Yashica Mat or Autocord or Rolleiflex or Diacord must be repaired?

Well, I'll stick to my $250 budget for now, especially considering I've seen a bunch of TLRs for under that on different sites. However, when I am done saving up for that $250, if I find that number insufficient, then I'll just continue saving. And I'm not purchasing right away, so maybe in a couple months I'll warm up to using APUG Classifieds.

I have no beef with 12 shots per roll. It was odd to learn about initially, but it's completely fine. But I read earlier that loading, rewinding, changing rolls, etc. can be a hassle. This is magnified when there is only 12 shots and the likelihood that you will finish the roll is much greater vs 24 or 36 exposure rolls as in 35mm.

h.v. said:

If the camera is advertised as being in fully working order and it arrives as such, it seems rather pointless to throw money away to have repairs that aren't needed. Does every camera have something wrong with it that every Yashica Mat or Autocord or Rolleiflex or Diacord must be repaired?

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Obviously not. However, these are old cameras. Chances are they could use a cleaning. Depends how picky you are. I don't think there will be anything wrong with a camera bought as 'in fully working order' from a reputable seller. However, chances are it won't be working like new, either. Focusing could always be smoother, for example.

This is the last time I'll say that...I feel like I've made the same post three times now, and yet you keep raising the same question. If you don't want to listed to the advice being given, I have no problem with that, but that begs the question...why ask in the first place?

h.v.:

The biggest reason I suggested you seek out someone to show you one of these cameras in operation is that it will make your research efforts much more effective. The hands on experience provides valuable context that books and internet resources struggle to impart.

It would also be a good idea to understand better where all these recommendations for immediately obtaining service come from. They come from your budget restrictions. Simply put, a $250.00 limit means that you are taking a chance on your camera and/or the seller's knowledge. All mechanical cameras require either regular service to be kept in "spec", or regular use by someone knowledgeable about how their camera should perform, and what the indications are when the camera is performing outside the normal specifications. If you buy such a camera (either recently serviced, or regularly used by someone who is knowledgeable and able to determine that the camera is fully functional), you will most likely have to pay more than $250.00.

If, instead, you buy a camera that hasn't been recently serviced, from someone who doesn't have the knowledge to be able to evaluate the condition of the camera, you may get lucky and get a camera that is working great and won't require service soon. Then again, you may not be so lucky, and because you don't have experience with the camera, you may not be able to tell that there is a problem.

The situation is the same with most 35mm cameras - its just easier to find way more examples of them, so the prices are lower.

All manual cameras require regular maintenance of some sort, although the frequency of that required maintenance will vary greatly with circumstances. $150 is a reasonable charge for that sort of work. There are Canadian service people, although you may find that they are slightly more expensive.

And so that you have a little bit more perspective on this, I'll describe a situation that may help.

I own a Mamiya C330 TLR that I bought new from the camera store I was working in in 1976. If I recall correctly, my "employee" price for that camera, which was the store's demonstrator, was about $400.00.

I've used it a fair bit, but it has been treated well and received maintenance service when required. If I were to sell it today, I could probably get at least $300 for it.

If you contrast that with 35mm camera equipment that sold for $400 - $500 in 1976, most of that equipment won't attract anything close to $300 on the market now. Much of that difference is due to the fact that the medium format equipment that is available now in your price range was made in far smaller quantities than the 35mm equipment made at the same time. Much of that medium format equipment (cameras like my Mamiya) was also made for use by professionals as well.

And by the way, the 12 exposure (or with 220 film, 24 exposure) limit worked fine for me when I used to shoot weddings, and certainly works fine now.

h.v. said:

But I read earlier that loading, rewinding, changing rolls, etc. can be a hassle. .

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As far as I know there is no "rewind" in 120. The film and backing paper winds into the spool on the other side.

Look, mate, would you buy a cheap - real cheap - 50-odd year old car and expect it to run like a dream and not need anything spent on it? Listen to what these expert photographers are patiently telling you. You make it sound like it's your "right" that we all tell you exactly what you want to hear and you get niggly when we don't and you seem to invent problems where there are none. This thread has gone on for eight pages now and you're still not satisfied. I'd suggest again, one last time, take Matt's advice and get some hands-on experience, then you'll understand what MF photography is about and decide whether it's what you want.

I wouldn't consider $250 "real cheap" when only $200 more is considered a golden number. Regardless, listings I've seen there are many TLRs that seem to be in my price range that have nothing other than cosmetic issues such as dings. I've already explained I do not expect anything, therefore I would think that you would also understand that I don't think I have any right to anything such as what you're describing. I didn't open this thread hoping people would tell me exactly what I wanted to hear. You know why? Because I didn't have anything specific I wanted to hear, aside from opinionated answers to my questions. For example, I didn't have my heart set on a Mamiya RB67, I was looking for advice, and based on the information given, I concluded for myself it wouldn't be the best decision. I'm getting "niggly" as you put it, not because of any person posting in this thread, but because this whole process is more frustrating than I thought it'd be. I didn't expect to hear that it would be highly recommended to go and get whatever camera you get repaired. I'm glad that people have suggested this, even though it adds to the frustration, because it allows me to make the decision with the most information possible. I don't know what I would have to be "satisfied" about. People responded, and I replied with comments and questions about their responses. Thus, the thread continued for pages.

EthanFrank: it isn't that I don't want the advice given. As I stated above, I'm grateful for all advice, opinions, links, etc. However, I was off put by the notion that in addition to $150-$200 on a camera, I'd need to spend another $75-$150 for maintenance and repair. I didn't expect that and it just makes it, for me, more complex (because there is much more to it, it seems, than just simple purchase and begin enjoying the camera).

MattKing: Thanks for all the information and opinions.

ColdEye: You're right, you'd think I would have caught that by learning how 120 is loaded and advanced.

We can't do anything about your dislike for the need for maintenance other than tell it like it is.. That's just the way it is for buying older used camera.

All you can do is to buy from a reputable dealer or a person and secure a return privilege before you make a payment. Get one in best condition you can possibly get for the money. Test it and return it if not right. Then deal with the problems as they come up after the guarantee is over.

I really suggest you don't go forward. Based on what I read here, there is a high likelihood you won't be pleased.

h.v. said:

To be honest, if a Yashica was built 50 years ago, and is still in working condition, I don't think it's out of line for me to expect at least 10 years with it still functioning properly. 35mm cameras seem more than happy to be old and still have life in them for years ahead.

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Your expectation is unrealistic. Even with the best of care a camera was never intended to operate for 50 years without service... let alone 60. Yes, Virginia... it IS out-of-line to expect that. Re: 35mm cameras.. no they aren't any happier being old.

I haven't even finished reading through this very fascinating thread but let me make an observations or two: 1. You really need to read a basic photogrpahy book; and 2. MF isn't a cheap hobby, and is getting much more expensive every day... maybe its not what you are ready to get into at this point in your life.

EthanFrank said:

The attitude is a bit off-putting.

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Yes it is. I got screwed by a forum buyer who had an attitude like that. That will happen only once. I'm taking names and keeping notes!