Aesthetics

Ed Sukach · Oct 16, 2004

Ed Sukach said:
...It has convinced me that "Fine Art Photography" does not have to limited to black and white ... certainly this image would lose a lot of its impact if devoid of its color.. and at that, the figure emerges ... I have a sense of "discovery"... from am illogical riot of color. From a genius of color ... and an artist who often expressed the wish that he could draw "better" - Renoir. His "Torse au Soleil", 1875:

Here I go, quoting myself again.

I can't help but wonder if a preoccupation with the science - the technical side of things ... and the maniacal searching to discover "errors" ("After all, no photograph is ever `perfect') detracts a great deal from the development of our style ... dulling our connection to our own aesthetic sense.

Critics seem to be invariably "searching for the bad stuff".

This quote is from "Pierre August Renoir" - ISBN 1-56852-112-X:

"Torse au Soleil was shown along with other of Renoir's paintings at the second exhibition in April 1876 of the group known henceforth as the Impressionists, and delighted Zola, who wrote, "In his work, a range of clear tonalities dominates, with passages between them designed with marvellous harmony. It is like a Rubens lit up by the bright sun of Velasquez. His portrait of a girl pleased me greatly, she is a strange and agreeable figure with her elongated face, her red hair, her barely perceptible smile, reminiscent of some Spanish infanta".
Compare this with what a famous critic of the time wrote in The Figaro: "Could someone please explain to M. Renoir that the torso of a woman is not a mass of decomposing flesh, with green and purple spots, that describe the state of complete putrefaction of the body..."

This has served as an admonition to ME to clear my mind - make it a blank slate (yeh, I know -- some will say I don't have far to go), and just be receptive to the emotional content of the work, be it photograph, or sculpture, or sand painting, or doodling in manure with a stick.

What you search for - you will find.

blansky · Oct 16, 2004

Bjork wrote:

As I think I've mentioned here before, the most influential photos of 2004, the ones that will last the longest in the history books, are simple little snapshots from Abu Ghraib Prison. The photographer intent and viewer reactions, both emotional, are worlds apart.

And further to this although a lot of people would think that the feeling of seeing these pictures was universal horror, or at least pretended to be horrified, my initial reaction was more of oh oh, who was the idiot that let these out into the street.

My point is that not only was the photographer and the viewer of differing viewpoints so where the myriad of viewers who saw the pictures.

Not wanting to take Ed thread off into a political/ moral debate I had always thought that certain prisioners in war were often subjected to "discomfort" in order to break their will. So the fact that these techniques went on wasn't any real eyeopener for me just the fact that some idiot let this stuff get out.
The fact that it is right or wrong wasn't my initial reaction.

Michael

Jim Chinn · Oct 16, 2004

The amount or level of effect that a photograph has on someone is entirely due to their background, dislikes, education etc. I would say that probably half of the images I see have some sort of impact on me. That may be as simple as liking the image because it is of a race car, airplane or a train, all things I enjoy from hobbies and activities as a kid, or something more complex as an abstraction or landscape that brings up deeper meaning and revalation.

One ot the great things about photography is that it can work on us at many different levels. The very best photographs communicate multiple ideas in a variety of ways. I think those images that are considered the most famous or beautiful or moving all share this trait.

Most of the images that I see and have some sort of response to quickly fade from memory. The ones that resonate we always remember. The great ones seem to always reveal a little more every time we see them or recall them. For some reason they carry a relevancy for us far beyone the initial
encounter.

bjorke · Oct 16, 2004

Ed Sukach said:
What you search for - you will find.

Regardless of what's actually there.

The honest truth, when I looked at that thumbnail, is that the emotion I felt was a tired sadness at seeing yet another extremely mannered image based not on what was there but on a desire to inhabit the formerly-warm space left behind by some other artist long ago.

And now more sadness at your bizarre defensive rant when a single phrase turns even one verb tense to the imperative. Guess I forgot how brittle glass houses can be. Never mind.

Ed Sukach · Oct 16, 2004

bjorke said:
And now more sadness at your bizarre defensive rant when a single phrase turns even one verb tense to the imperative. Guess I forgot how brittle glass houses can be. Never mind.

Which verb tense was that? ... "Stop" .. of "Stop it"?

Sounds kind of "imperative" to me.

Ole · Oct 16, 2004

blansky said:
And further to this although a lot of people would think that the feeling of seeing these pictures was universal horror, or at least pretended to be horrified, my initial reaction was more of oh oh, who was the idiot that let these out into the street.
...

One of the real advantages of the d*gital age: It lets the idiots document their stupidity, and ensures wide dissemination of said documentation. "Lack of training into proper treatment of prisoners" is not an excuse, it's proof of stupidity.

Ed Sukach · Oct 16, 2004

One last comment about Renoir, for the time being, at least. This thread evolved from another about "Masters". Certainly everyone in the later part of Renoir's life considered him to be a Master. He, himself, did not ... from the same book:

"A relentless worker, he never stopped painting right up to his death: he had always aimed at being a good working painter, which is why he was able to create such a vast and profuse body of painting. He never considered he had "made it" and sought unceasingly the secrets of the great masters. "The only reward for work," he said, "is the work itself."

I'm going to chill out for a while, now. This is a much a strain on my brain as anyone else's.

A wee dram o' Oban Scot's Whisky awaits.

Ed Sukach · Oct 16, 2004

Ole said:
"Lack of training into proper treatment of prisoners" is not an excuse, it's proof of stupidity.

I absolutely agree, Ole... I know I run the risk of being "off-topic" - but there is no way I can ignore this.

One should consider the treatment of Russian prisoners by the Finns in the Winter and Continuation wars ... and the effect that had on the war itself.

TPPhotog · Oct 19, 2004

I found a quote that sort of brings this one back on topic it applies to painting but could just as easily be photography

"Every portrait that is painted with feeling is a portrait of the artist, not of the sitter" - Oscar Wilde

I still feel the actual aesthetics is a personal thing based on the experiences of the viewer.

clogz · Oct 19, 2004

With the exception of the Portrait of Dorian Grey of course.

TPPhotog · Oct 19, 2004

clogz said:
With the exception of the Portrait of Dorian Grey of course.

Is he a member of APUG? LOL

Aestetics might be similar to the quote in that if the viewer can relate to the picture or dump their own baggage into what they see then the viewer finds it aestheticly pleasing, if not then it's alien to them and they move onto the next picture.

Ed Sukach · Oct 21, 2004

I've been mulling over the idea that the "involvement" of the photographer is, in some way, detrimental to the "artistic content" (another name for aesthetics??) - a view expressed by Edward Weston, and others (sort of obtusely in that quote by Wilde..), and yet, I don't think it is POSSIBLE to be totally detached ... and therefore "uninterested". The quote by Weston was contained in the book "Edward Weston - Forms of Passion".

Anyway ... the images here that DO interest - and affect me emotionally, The first that come to mind are the photographs of Cheryl Jacobs. I'm at the point where I can find nothing but praise for her work, her vision, and her ability to transfer the emotion of the moment. My impressions: She LIKES children. She emphasizes with them, and identifies with them. She would really like to join in, jumping on the beds ... I will bet that her work is a source of joy .. and given all that ... it would be difficult for her to take a BAD photograph. In a nutshell ... OOO! She is GOOD!!

Now ... I will place myself on the "chopping block" again. How do you FEEL about/ from/ experiencing this image?

l

mark · Oct 21, 2004

Ed, That is one cold image. Even as small as the guy is you can see his shoulders hunched.

TPPhotog · Oct 21, 2004

OK Ed I'll give you the fact that it reminds me of my childhood and therefore brings back several feelings / emotions. Partly because of the fact it use to snow when I was a child and partly for ye olde psychological reasons.

Soooo your not on the "chopping block" but your point is?

blansky · Oct 21, 2004

Ed, I like the image a lot. But I don't have much of an emotional response to it.

It makes me glad I left the land of snow, and the bleakness that it can have.

What I DO like is the fact that there is a human in the picture. IN MY OPINION, way too many scenic photographers take wonderful pictures of landscape but to me, if there are no people in them to relate to I don't find them of much interest.

If you look at this picture and place your finger over the person, you have a far less interesting picture that with him in it.

Michael McBlane

glbeas · Oct 21, 2004

It resonates with memories I have of a few snowy, icy and foggy days when I was younger. Without those memories I'd say it was a pretty picture, well done!

Ed Sukach · Oct 24, 2004

Interesting ... I mentioned Abstraction #27 (see the Critique gallery) to an *accomplished* oil painter/ Art School Instructor ... which led to showing it to her, and through her, to a group of equally accomplished artists working in oils, pastels, acrylics, charcoals ... and a bunch of other media. Apparently it causes more of a reaction in this "art" setting than it does in photography. I'm still trying to decide whether this is a "good" or "bad" thing.

Now, your thoughts, please...

Critiques. We have all heard the idea that they are "good" and "necessary" - "If you wanna get better."

I think they are of value in determining some sort of guidelines that help decipher the reactions/ interactions of your work with others.
As far as "internal" improvement of some sort ... possibly they serve to bring to light some hidden attributes of an image we may be overlooking, but in the long run, I see particulary acidic critiques as having a very great negative (read: BAD) effect on the growth of any photographer... serving to cloud and unduly erode their personal vision, through the restrictions they place on their freedom.

What about it, gang - do you feel that you have learned more from listening to others, or through experimentation and listening to your own private, "inner voice"?

glbeas · Oct 24, 2004

Ed Sukach said:
What about it, gang - do you feel that you have learned more from listening to others, or through experimentation and listening to your own private, "inner voice"?

I think its about 50-50 there. Learning other peoples views and seeing what they are based on can give insight on where our own views are based. That in turn can give a point in which to depart from to create someting more unique, or conversely you can use it to tune in your own vision by combining inputs that resonate with your own in the direction you desire to go.
It can be hard for some folks to recognise, listen to, and implement that inner voice without some kind of practice doing so, since theres little generally taught in our society that teaches those techniques. I think your observations are a valuable step along that path.

mark · Oct 24, 2004

Ed Sukach said:
What about it, gang - do you feel that you have learned more from listening to others, or through experimentation and listening to your own private, "inner voice"?

It all depends.

John Cusak in High Fidelity said: "I've been listening to my guts for years and I have come to the conclusion that my guts are full of shit".

In a lot of ways this is true. For me especially. My gut feeling about things like exposure and composition can really lead me astray. My inner voice is good for certain things. I know what I like to shoot and when I get out of my comfort zone that inner voice tells me so. It is of course then up to me to listen or not.

When I am around people and I listen to them I find that I start to shoot what they think I should shoot. I am not happy.

Once I balance everything out I would say it is equal. I need to listen to what is inside of me because that is how I, as the artist, realize what I want to accomplish on an aesthetic level. I listen to people for the technical stuff that it is beyond my inner voice to accomplish on my own. I experiement a lot but if I cannot find the answer I go looking for some guidance.

If I did not balance the two I would stagnate or begin to cater to everyone but myself in my work.

Hope this makes sense

Ed Sukach · Oct 26, 2004

mark said:
It all depends.
If I did not balance the two I would stagnate or begin to cater to everyone but myself in my work.
Hope this makes sense

It does make sense. I think I am more of a loner - introvert. I tend to work things out for myself ... I don't ask for directions while driving, either.

Came across this quote - should - might - be the seed for a couple of comments:

"We don't see things as they are - we see things as we are."

- Anais Nin

... And as we see, so do we do.

Ed Sukach · Nov 15, 2004

Mindset..

Came across this at another site. With permission:

"What greets you each morning is just another page in the beauty of life. It becomes exciting only when you take the time to stop, look deeply at what is around you, and let that moment into your heart as well as into your eyes.

Some of the most barren lands in the world, like the ice fields around the South Pole, look like ice with whipped cream thrown on the surface, until you look closely and discover the minute patterns of ice imperfections, and how the shadows from the snow create a world that could be the outline of a distant forest or city at the time of first dark.... "

--- Jackson < shakey-city-jack@comcast.net >

If I ever write a book on "Acquiring Vision" ... that will be the Foreword.

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