Advices on toning

Do you tone or not the same day as you print?

That may sound obvious, but I am new to printing and I would like to hear advices, pros and cons on toning during the printing session or the other day.

Ilford MG FB Classic glossy is my paper of choice and I tone in Selenium mainly to get rid of greenish tint, but also to deepen blacks and improve stability.

I don't have a darkroom yet and do everything in the kitchen.
Here is the sequence I follow:
Dev (Ilford Bromophen 1+3, 2 min) / stop bath (citric acid 40 g per 1 l, 15 s) / fix (Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4, 50 s) / wash (20 min) / dry.
Next day:
Pre soak (water, 10-15 min) / fix (Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9, 1 min) / Selenium Toner (HARMAN Selenium Toner 1+9 diluted with working solution of Kodak Hype Clearing Agent 1+4, 2-3 min) / water with hypo clear (Kodak HCA 1+4, 4 min) / first wash (water, 30 min rocking the tray periodically) / second water bath (Ilford Ilfotol 1+200, 5 min) / dry + hot drying press.

My experience is that if I tone right after developing and fixing, the toning effect I get with Selenium toner is more prominent than toning later in another session, it takes less time to achieve the look.
However, the prints sometimes had stains. I followed the idea that emulsion is kinda soft before dried down properly and toning the next day with second fix should provide more stable results. Also, I am more relaxed than if I do it straight after development and fixing.

I would like to read Tim Rudman's book on Toning to learn but I cant overstep the prices for that book at the moment.

I usually tone the same session as printing. Selenium is quick and can be done right out of the fixer (I usually wash briefly however). Then all you have to do is a hypo clear and throw in the wash. So for selenium I think it's easier in the same session. When I get into sepia and brown toning I'll sometimes do that at a later session.

If you're getting staining your prints are not fixed completely. If you want to do two selerate sessions you still have to fix and wash to completion. Never let a print dry that is not completely washed. So this means complete fixing, whether two bath or not, doesn't matter, and a complete wash, which for me means using a hypo clearing agent. By the time you have done all this work you could have added the selenium step and saved yourself from having to wash the print again the next session.

I'd suggest doing the second fix bath immediately after the second, then brief wash, hypo clear, finish washing and and dry, the next day soak in water then tone in Selenium.

I only selenium tone in Daylight as that's better for judging colour shifts, that might be at the end of a printing session but is more typically the next day like you. You need that double bath fixing to eliminate stains also the hypo clear before Toning.

Ian

brian steinberger said:

I usually tone the same session as printing. Selenium is quick and can be done right out of the fixer (I usually wash briefly however). Then all you have to do is a hypo clear and throw in the wash. So for selenium I think it's easier in the same session. When I get into sepia and brown toning I'll sometimes do that at a later session.

If you're getting staining your prints are not fixed completely. If you want to do two selerate sessions you still have to fix and wash to completion. Never let a print dry that is not completely washed. So this means complete fixing, whether two bath or not, doesn't matter, and a complete wash, which for me means using a hypo clearing agent. By the time you have done all this work you could have added the selenium step and saved yourself from having to wash the print again the next session.

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Ian Grant said:

I'd suggest doing the second fix bath immediately after the second, then brief wash, hypo clear, finish washing and and dry, the next day soak in water then tone in Selenium.

I only selenium tone in Daylight as that's better for judging colour shifts, that might be at the end of a printing session but is more typically the next day like you. You need that double bath fixing to eliminate stains also the hypo clear before Toning.

Ian

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Thanks for the tips! I should be more careful in washing.
Do you observe difference in how the print gets toned if you tone straightaway or later?

brian steinberger said:

I usually tone the same session as printing. Selenium is quick and can be done right out of the fixer (I usually wash briefly however). Then all you have to do is a hypo clear and throw in the wash. So for selenium I think it's easier in the same session. When I get into sepia and brown toning I'll sometimes do that at a later session.

If you're getting staining your prints are not fixed completely. If you want to do two selerate sessions you still have to fix and wash to completion. Never let a print dry that is not completely washed. So this means complete fixing, whether two bath or not, doesn't matter, and a complete wash, which for me means using a hypo clearing agent. By the time you have done all this work you could have added the selenium step and saved yourself from having to wash the print again the next session.

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Ian Grant said:

I'd suggest doing the second fix bath immediately after the second, then brief wash, hypo clear, finish washing and and dry, the next day soak in water then tone in Selenium.

I only selenium tone in Daylight as that's better for judging colour shifts, that might be at the end of a printing session but is more typically the next day like you. You need that double bath fixing to eliminate stains also the hypo clear before Toning.

Ian

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Thanks for the tips! I should be more careful in washing.
Do you observe difference in how the print gets toned if you tone straightaway or later?

Why do you finish off with Ilford Ilfotol before drying? Is it to speed the drying process?
I usually do my toning in a separate session, because that workflow works best for me. But I usually work with RC papers.

iakustov said:

Do you observe difference in how the print gets toned if you tone straightaway or later?

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No I don't notice any difference. That was interesting to me to read that you noticed a difference.

I've written a lot about my toning workflow and my replenishment and reuse of selenium toner. Search on my name for more details.

In short: I give a full first fix (i.e., fixing to "commercial standards") and a full one-hour-plus wash during my printing sessions. Prints are then dried, evaluated and culled. The keepers are collected and go to a toning session later that consists of: water soak, fix two, toner, hypo-clear, wash.

Note that I go directly from the second fix to the toner. This is only possible if you use an almost neutral to alkaline fixer. I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fixer 1+9 or one of the TF alkaline fixers. I see no advantage to a hypo-clear step before toning; you're going to need it after the toning anyway, why do it twice (unless there's an acid fix in play and the hypo-clear soak adjust the print pH so that staining is eliminated; not sure about this as I never use really acid fixers).

To make sure you don't get stains: 1. Don't overuse your fix and use two-bath fixing. 2. Use a neutral to alkaline fix for at least the second fixing bath. A print that is fully fixed and not too acid will not stain in selenium toner.

A note on replenishment: I tone visually to the desired image tone, so times are different for every image. Paper type, amount of toning desired, how much of the print is black vs white, etc., all affect toning time. When my toning times get too long, I replenish the toner with a bit of stock concentrate. I filter the toner before and after use and simply keep it for the next session. I'm going on 10+ years with two gallons of toner now that have never been discarded. Prints get tested for residual silver and hypo regularly; never a problem there.

Best,

Doremus

MattKing said:

Why do you finish off with Ilford Ilfotol before drying? Is it to speed the drying process? .

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Yes, for speed and even drying.

Doremus Scudder said:

I've written a lot about my toning workflow and my replenishment and reuse of selenium toner. Search on my name for more details.

In short: I give a full first fix (i.e., fixing to "commercial standards") and a full one-hour-plus wash during my printing sessions. Prints are then dried, evaluated and culled. The keepers are collected and go to a toning session later that consists of: water soak, fix two, toner, hypo-clear, wash.

Note that I go directly from the second fix to the toner. This is only possible if you use an almost neutral to alkaline fixer. I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fixer 1+9 or one of the TF alkaline fixers. I see no advantage to a hypo-clear step before toning; you're going to need it after the toning anyway, why do it twice (unless there's an acid fix in play and the hypo-clear soak adjust the print pH so that staining is eliminated; not sure about this as I never use really acid fixers).

To make sure you don't get stains: 1. Don't overuse your fix and use two-bath fixing. 2. Use a neutral to alkaline fix for at least the second fixing bath. A print that is fully fixed and not too acid will not stain in selenium toner.

A note on replenishment: I tone visually to the desired image tone, so times are different for every image. Paper type, amount of toning desired, how much of the print is black vs white, etc., all affect toning time. When my toning times get too long, I replenish the toner with a bit of stock concentrate. I filter the toner before and after use and simply keep it for the next session. I'm going on 10+ years with two gallons of toner now that have never been discarded. Prints get tested for residual silver and hypo regularly; never a problem there.

Best,

Doremus

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It looks like I was following this approach, but had less washing time during printing session. Thanks for this valuable info!

Remember that both selenium and sulfur toners are used to test for silver retention. This means that any silver remaining in the print will cause staining. Therefor as Ian suggests use a two bath fixing system and wash well before toning.

iakustov said:

It looks like I was following this approach, but had less washing time during printing session. Thanks for this valuable info!

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I know from reading earlier posts by Doremus that he doesn't dilute selenium toner with HCA (as you're doing), but uses water instead - perhaps he's expecting you to search to learn that. His reasoning is that the toner has indefinite life, but the HCA's life is quite short; so the toning bath would have to be discarded after use, thus wasting perfectly good toner. He uses coffee filters for the toner to get rid of the "specks" in it.

silveror0 said:

I know from reading earlier posts by Doremus that he doesn't dilute selenium toner with HCA (as you're doing), but uses water instead - perhaps he's expecting you to search to learn that. His reasoning is that the toner has indefinite life, but the HCA's life is quite short; so the toning bath would have to be discarded after use, thus wasting perfectly good toner. He uses coffee filters for the toner to get rid of the "specks" in it.

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Oh, yes, I missed that.
I am awful at chemistry, just curious - could there be any difference in colour / tint and toning time if selenium toner is diluted with water or with HCA?

iakustov said:

Oh, yes, I missed that.
I am awful at chemistry, just curious - could there be any difference in colour / tint and toning time if selenium toner is diluted with water or with HCA?

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I've only recently switched to water dilution and have not noticed any significant differences, but I'll defer to Doremus for his experience.

I made prints for several weeks -- completely fixed, washed, and dried. Then I'd take the best of several images, give them a good long soak, then selenium tone...maybe 12 to 16 16x20 prints in a session. Just found this was the best method for my workflow/space. It also gave me a chance to look at the prints for awhile before investing in the time and effort of selenium toning an image.

iakustov said:

Oh, yes, I missed that.
I am awful at chemistry, just curious - could there be any difference in colour / tint and toning time if selenium toner is diluted with water or with HCA?

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The practice of mixing selenium toner with HCA was advocated by Kodak and promoted by Ansel Adams in an age when dumping toxic heavy metals into the environment was not such an issue as it is now. The idea was that you could combine the steps and save time. I suppose that is still true, but in order to do that you would need to toss a lot of (expensive) active toner when the capacity for the HCA was reached, both wasting money and dumping selenium down the drain (or wherever). It's more efficient and eco-friendly to use the toner for as long as possible and have the HCA as a separate step after toning. If you replenish toner like I do, then you never have to discard it at all.

As for differences in tone and toning speed with and without HCA: I've never done a side-by-side comparison, but I doubt it would make a difference, either in image tone or time. I have compared image tone from prints toned at different toner dilutions. My results indicate that there is no appreciable difference in image tone as long as the time in the more-diluted toner is extended enough so that the print reaches the same degree of toning. As mentioned, I use a "strong" and a "weak" toner dilution since different papers tone at different rates. For papers that tone rapidly, I like a weak dilution that keeps the toning times at 3-6 minutes. For slower-toning papers, though, my patience runs out and I use a stronger solution to achieve about the same toning time. I even tweak the toner activity by little bits by adding a splash of concentrate or more water, depending on whether I want more or less activity.

For those that blindly tone for a specific time at a specific dilution (e.g., "I always tone my prints for 3.5 minutes in selenium toner diluted 1+19..."): Every print though the toning bath reduces its activity somewhat; we know it takes progressively longer to get the same image color change with used toner than with fresh. This approach ensures neither "archival protection" nor consistent toning. Any protection benefit from toning only happens when there is a marked visual change in image tone (toning to "completion" is the only way to get maximum protection, and not many of us really want that much image tone change). And, not lengthening toning time as the toner exhausts just ensures inconsistency. If there is no visible change, then there is very little (or no) toning happening.

I tone visually, under what I consider to be "bright gallery lighting." When the print has just about reached the amount of change I desire, I pull it from the toner and immerse it in the water holding tray (or the HCA tray). If it needs more toning, it can go back into the toner, but you can't undo toning once it's been done. I also find that different images "want" different amounts of toning for the best visual effect. That's why I watch my prints when toning and tone to the extent I think is best for that particular image.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus, what is the replenishing scheme you are following for the selenium toner? Your approach sounds interesting.

Are you sure that there are no by-products accumulating in then toner solution over time?

Lars

LarsAC said:

Doremus, what is the replenishing scheme you are following for the selenium toner? Your approach sounds interesting. Are you sure that there are no by-products accumulating in then toner solution over time?

Lars

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Lars,

It's really very simple: when toning times get too long for comfort, I just add concentrate from the bottle. I don't measure this carefully; an ounce per liter or a bit more maybe to start and then more if times are still too slow. Occasionally I'll add too much, so then I just dilute with water till the times slow back down. I have a couple of gallon jugs of replenished toner, one marked "weak" and one marked "strong." I really have no idea what the actual dilutions are. These have been going for years (10+).

As for by products: Used toner develops a black, powdery precipitate that needs to be filtered out. I filter before and after each use, when pouring in and out of the jugs. This keeps the working solution clean and clear. I believe that whatever silver complexes end up in the toner solution are bound with selenium and then precipitate out. In any case, I test my prints regularly for residual hypo and silver. Prints toned with the replenished toner pass the tests with flying colors. My standard is no stain at all from both tests.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus,

Thanks for sharing details about your procedure. So it is all about experience rather than science (in a positive sense). I have mixed fresh toner this weekend anyway (after a longer of absence from the darkroom) and will try your approach with my fresh batch.

I had experienced precipitate (lots of) when I accidentally mixed used fixer and selenium toner a while back. I guess, This will be the same substance. Good to hear, it can be filtered easily.

Lars

Doremus,
What do you consider your normal (not too long and not too short) range of toning time? Is "too long" just a matter of losing patience? I've had prints toning for 15 minutes occasionally and that's about the limit of my patience. Is print size a factor?

silveror0 said:

Doremus,
What do you consider your normal (not too long and not too short) range of toning time? Is "too long" just a matter of losing patience? I've had prints toning for 15 minutes occasionally and that's about the limit of my patience. Is print size a factor?

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I like times in the 4-8 minute range. Shorter than that and things can tone too much too quickly; longer than that and my patience gets frazzled. It's really a matter of personal preference though. I know people who like to tone for 3 minutes or less. Print size shouldn't be a factor unless larger prints increase handling/drain time enough to warrant extending the toning time.

Best,

Doremus

Very interesting read, thank you everyone! I just finished toning some prints with selenium for the first time (1+19) and don't really see much of a shift of color at all, if any, even after an hour of toning. Paper is Adox MCC-110. Will print another photo later, cut it in half, tone one half and compare.

What I am much more interested in, though, is that some people seem to be putting their dry prints into the fixer again, before toning, whereas others simply soak dry prints in water before toning. Is there any reason as to why someone would put the print in fixer first, as compared to water? (assuming the print has been fixed properly before drying).

I seldom tone on the same day, but I seldom tone. Some people give every print a quick treatment in selenium toner for archival reasons - not to alter the color of the print. In that case, toning during the same session makes some sense. If you really need to judge the color and tone of the result, Ian Grant's workflow makes real sense, although it could be tedious if you have to make many tries to get the print right. I sometimes use GP-1, which requires HCA and very thorough washing. Next day makes life easier. Most times, I don't decide to tone a print until I have had it around a while. Then I tone, wash and dry the toned print to see if it is what I want. If not, I print it again and usually tone it in another session a few hours later. My workflow makes it easier to separate the toning from the printing. The really important thing is to determine a workflow that works for you and allows you to get the results you want.

holggger said:

... I just finished toning some prints with selenium for the first time (1+19) and don't really see much of a shift of color at all, if any, even after an hour of toning. Paper is Adox MCC-110. Will print another photo later, cut it in half, tone one half and compare.

What I am much more interested in, though, is that some people seem to be putting their dry prints into the fixer again, before toning, whereas others simply soak dry prints in water before toning. Is there any reason as to why someone would put the print in fixer first, as compared to water? (assuming the print has been fixed properly before drying).

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First, Adox MCC-110 should tone beautifully in selenium; it does for me. I imagine your 1+19 dilution is just too weak. Try 1+9 and if that doesn't do the job, go even stronger. I keep a couple of jugs of selenium toner around, one marked "weak" and one marked "strong." Some papers are very sensitive to toner and tone quickly, some need stronger toner to make an image-tone change and some don't tone much at all.

As for fixing before toning. The print is fully fixed before going into the toner, so there are no staining problems. Some people fix fully and wash the prints and then tone later. I give my prints the second fix of a two-bath fixing regime just before toning and transfer directly from the fix to the toner and then wash later (that way, I don't waste fixer on prints I discard). Either workflow is fine as long as the prints are adequately fixed before being toned.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

As for fixing before toning. The print is fully fixed before going into the toner, so there are no staining problems. Some people fix fully and wash the prints and then tone later. I give my prints the second fix of a two-bath fixing regime just before toning and transfer directly from the fix to the toner and then wash later (that way, I don't waste fixer on prints I discard). Either workflow is fine as long as the prints are adequately fixed before being toned.

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Thank you for this explanation! I will try a higher concentration of toner next time. This stuff smells horrible even from meters away…

Do you ever tone prints after you let them dry? Considering your workflow, that might look like giving the prints two fixes, then washing (without toning inbetween), then drying. Say you decide you want to tone some of these prints later, following your logic am I correct to assume you would just soak them in water and then put them in the toner (and then wash them)?

Try some polysulfide toner and selenium is like parfume afterwards.

Yes, you can tone later if you presoak the print in water for 10-15mins.

After reading this thread I now tone in Se during the printing session as it is just one additional step. Other toning steps I do later. Good suggestion.

Lars