Advice on toning and brands

Hi!

I will be doing my first fiber prints at home and will start to toning them too.
It's really hard (and expensive) to find these things where I live, so I'll be buying it from Freestyle.

I chose Kentmere VC 11x14 glossy, Ilford Selenium toner, Kodak Hypo and Fomatoner sepia.
Fomatoner is the only sepia available for shipping, so I don't have much choice, but, I would like to know if anyone used it and how did it go.

I would like to get a soft yellow tone on the highlights. Can I get it with this combination? I'll probably be using Dektol.

Just one more question (sorry!): about the hypo, I have to use it after the fixer and after each toner?

I have no experience with toning and fiber, so any advice is welcome.

Josephine

Have you read this:

http://www.darkroom.ru/info/manuals/foma_fomatoner_sepia_manual_eng.pdf

According to this publication, you'll get what you're looking for.

Yes, I've read that. I think the yellow-green is the tone I'm looking for. But, I've read a lot here about how the tones can change depending on the paper and sometimes, the developer. Of course, I'll have to experiment a lot before I get it right, but it's a little expensive for me to get those things, so I wanted to be sure of my choice.

Thank you very much, Ralph!

Josephine

I haven't used this toner, because I prefer direct toning over indirect toning, but from what I read, it should work just fine for you.

The traditional yellowish-brown tones are usually associated with hypo-alum toner, although aggressive sulfide sepia toners also sometimes reach this. Selenium tends toward purple. The exact effect of the toner depends a lot on the paper and a bit on the processing. Different toner formulations (even though called by the same name) can give vastly different tones. Asking for peoples experience is a good idea, but some experimentation will be required in any case.

nworth said:

The traditional yellowish-brown tones are usually associated with hypo-alum toner, although aggressive sulfide sepia toners also sometimes reach this. Selenium tends toward purple. The exact effect of the toner depends a lot on the paper and a bit on the processing. Different toner formulations (even though called by the same name) can give vastly different tones. Asking for peoples experience is a good idea, but some experimentation will be required in any case.

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No Hypo-Alum toners give purple brown tones. The best yellow brown toners are usually use Thiourea (Thiocarbamide) and the Fomatoner Sepia is of this type so should be ideal.

If you are going to use an indirect toner like this (bleach then tone) ideally you shouldn't use a warm tone developer with a warm-tone paper first, but then it may be worth experimenting.

Ian

RalphLambrecht said:

I haven't used this toner, because I prefer direct toning over indirect toning,

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I know.

Yes, I think some experimentation is necessary. I didn't know Fomatoner was the Thiourea type (not stinky?). But, I have the intention of trying others later. I just don't like the strong sepia tone, I prefer something more subtle.

The Selenium will be used mostly for conservation, but I'm really willing to experiment with toning too. I want to learn.

Thank you all very much for the help!!

Hi Josephine:

One of the joys of toning is the variety of results available .

One point of clarification. I am guessing that when you refer to "Hypo" you actually mean "Hypo Clearing Agent" (not Hypo Eliminator - thanks for catching that CBG). Hypo is a traditional nickname for fixer (arising from sodium hyposulfate), so when you refer to "Hypo", many people will understand you to mean fixer.

Most likely you will have seen a recommendation for Tim Rudman's book: "The Photographer's Toning Book". If you can find one, it is great. If you can find two, you can sell the second, for good money .

Assuming you cannot find that book...

The reason hypo clearing agent is recommended is that it aids in ensuring that prints are fully washed. Accordingly, it is recommended after the initial, fixer stage. It is also recommended after selenium toning. As far as I am aware, it is not necessary after the bleach/redevelopment stages of sepia toning.

I've been experimenting recently with combinations of selenium and sepia toning. One thing to keep in mind is that if you tone fully first in either selenium or sepia, and then try to re-tone in the other, it won't work. A fully selenium toned print is immune to the effects of sepia toner. And vice-versa!

On page 123 of Tim Rudman's book he recommends two potential approaches to using both toners:

Partial bleach - wash - sepia tone - wash - selenium tone - hypo-clear/wash

Or

Partial selenium tone - hypo-clear/wash - partial bleach - sepia tone - wash

Both workflows assume full hypo-clear/wash before beginning toning.

Also, if you use hypo-clear after selenium toning, you should not re-use the same hypo-clear for regular washing.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

MattKing said:

One point of clarification. I am guessing that when you refer to "Hypo" you actually mean "Hypo Eliminator". Hypo is a traditional nickname for fixer (arising from sodium hyposulfate), so when you refer to "Hypo", many people will understand you to mean fixer.

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Yes! I said it wrong. I meant HCA.

MattKing said:

Most likely you will have seen a recommendation for Tim Rudman's book: "The Photographer's Toning Book". If you can find one, it is great. If you can find two, you can sell the second, for good money .

Click to expand...

I can find one and I would do exactly what you said if I could afford it!

One thing to keep in mind is that if you tone fully first in either selenium or sepia, and then try to re-tone in the other, it won't work. A fully selenium toned print is immune to the effects of sepia toner. And vice-versa!

Click to expand...

I think I'll have to experiment with this too to get the appropriate times, right? I read here that when you start to see a little change of tone in the shadows (if selenium first) is time to take it off, cause it will still be working during wash. I don't know if I got it right, though...

Thank you very much! It helped a lot.

MattKing said:

... I am guessing that when you refer to "Hypo" you actually mean "Hypo Eliminator" ...

Click to expand...

To clarify just a bit further:

Hypo is one name for fixer. Fix helps remove undeveloped silver halides from the image, and is the first part of making the image permanent, i.e. "fixing" the image.

Hypo Clear is a generic term for washing aids in general. Most often used after print fixing (and a brief rinse) to help remove fixing byproducts from printing paper. All the sulfite based wash aids like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, Permawash etc all do pretty much the same thing.

Hypo Clearing Agent is Kodak's sulfite based washing aid. Like all washing aids, used to help rid paper of fixer.

Hypo eliminator refers to a very different chemical. Used after washing to attain almost total elimination of the last tiny remnants of fixer. One type of hypo eliminator is Kodak HE-1 Hypo Eliminator. HE-1 is made of water, hydrogen peroxide and ammonia. Recent research suggests hypo eliminators are actually destructive to the printed image, and it is now recommended that one not use them. They are not part of archival best practices.

I didn't know about the last one. Thank you!!

Tim has announced a reprint of his toning book. Have a look at the thread and make sure you put in an order. It has to be the most comprehensive toning book ever.

pentaxuser

Ditto the above. Great book. If you want to know about toning, it is the only place to start. Other items Tim Rudman has written are great too.

Thanks!!

I'll really try to get one. I hope it comes with a good price...