Advice on inexpensive MF for the 17 y.o. son.

Meow7 · May 27, 2017

Hello folks, Looking for some advice on a MF camera for my 17 y.o. son who is a pretty awesome film photographer... He started with the AE1 Program, now he's using the A2e and his photo prof. has lent him a 4x5 to try out. So he's interested in a MF. I have a Fuji GS645S, which is nice but a little limiting, but I was thinking more of 6x7 or 6x9. He likes doing long exposures, night photography. Experimental stuff. And architecture...

Inexpensive meaning under $500, under $400 even better. Not overly delicate...

Looking at:
Mamiya Press Super 23, which folks say the optics not that hot. That seems to have a lot of good options in film backs etc.
Mamiya Universal Press, more expensive, can do Polaroid... He might like that.
Graphlex Crown Graphic 2x3
Fuji GS690, but someone did say as a rangefinder it's a big one trick pony.
Bronica ETRS, not as portable
Mamiya RB67, I like the RB67 but is it not as portable either.

I'm sure there is something else out there as well.

I look forward to hearing your expert opinions

Thanks!!!
Adria

chassis · May 27, 2017

RB67.

It is portable. It does everything you listed. It is not overly delicate. In your price range. A deep used market, with a full array of lenses and accessories. Beautiful big 6x7 negatives.

wiltw · May 27, 2017

The 645 format Bronica ETRS is supremely portable! Certainly far more portable than a 6x7 or 6x9 format camera.

Next to my small not-so-small APS-C dSLR with 17-55mm zoom...an ETRSi with 45-90mm zoom and metering prism.

Many folks compare the ETRS with Speed Grip to be like handling a 35mm SLR. Due to the decline of popularity of film cameras, I have seen ETRS with 75mm lens, film back and metering prism go for $300...a kit which cost $3000 when new. A current ad on eBay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zenza-Broni...ns-/201745136751?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275

jspillane · May 27, 2017

RB67's are great beasts and cheap. But my top choice would be a Bronica SQ series (6x6). I found (and still find) that composing using a square negative is one of the most unique aspects of MF; plus 6x6 cameras are not too much bigger than 645 cameras (often smaller since they work better with waist-level finders), and for enlargement purposes they give you almost as much negative as a 6x7 camera. To me they are the true medium format, as they rest perfectly in the middle of the spectrum between 35mm shooting and LF shooting.

They also use leaf shutter lenses which would allow him to start moving into serious flash/studio work, if it so interested him.

I currently own three different 6x6 cameras and no 6x4.5, 6x7 or 6x9 cameras though, so maybe I am biased towards the format! My feeling has always been that if I need 6x9, I probably am better off moving to shooting 4x5.

ac12 · May 27, 2017

Why is the Fuji 645 limiting? It might meet what he wants. Then again, sometimes he doesn't know what he wants, and has to figure it out along the way.
He is young enough to haul around the RB67, unlike the sr citizen who is typing this
Similar for the Bronica.
A TLR is not a bad option either. Just with a fixed lens. Many times the limitation of working with ONE lens forces you to think more.
Though architecture kinda points towards a view camera for tilt and shift.
Don't count on Polaroid/instant film for the Mamiya Universal Press. I understand the current stuff that is avail is not like the old Polaroid. I do not know if Fuji still makes instant film.

I would get him involved with this decision.
A 6x6 may fit what he wants. Then again, what he wants may evolve over time.
Since you have a 645, let him start off with that, and see where it goes. He may like the Fuji 645 for its DSLR like handling, or he may want to go to something like the RB67.

Vaughn · May 27, 2017

An old TLR.

ac12 · May 27, 2017

jspillane said:
I currently own three different 6x6 cameras and no 6x4.5, 6x7 or 6x9 cameras though, so maybe I am biased towards the format! My feeling has always been that if I need 6x9, I probably am better off moving to shooting 4x5.

I view the 6x9 as the largest roll film camera format before going to sheet film.
I have a 4x5, and want to get a 6x9 for its easier handling.

For the OP
If you print at home, do you have an enlarger that will handle a 6x9 negative?

RalphLambrecht · May 27, 2017

Meow7 said:
Hello folks, Looking for some advice on a MF camera for my 17 y.o. son who is a pretty awesome film photographer... He started with the AE1 Program, now he's using the A2e and his photo prof. has lent him a 4x5 to try out. So he's interested in a MF. I have a Fuji GS645S, which is nice but a little limiting, but I was thinking more of 6x7 or 6x9. He likes doing long exposures, night photography. Experimental stuff. And architecture...

Inexpensive meaning under $500, under $400 even better. Not overly delicate...

Looking at:
Mamiya Press Super 23, which folks say the optics not that hot. That seems to have a lot of good options in film backs etc.
Mamiya Universal Press, more expensive, can do Polaroid... He might like that.
Graphlex Crown Graphic 2x3
Fuji GS690, but someone did say as a rangefinder it's a big one trick pony.
Bronica ETRS, not as portable
Mamiya RB67, I like the RB67 but is it not as portable either.

I'm sure there is something else out there as well.

I look forward to hearing your expert opinions

Thanks!!!
Adria

How about a Hasselblad 500c for his 18th.they can be found for less than1200 are very robust sand make him so poor,he can never get into drugs a present he wil charisma for the rest of his life and you can use it too.

tedr1 · May 27, 2017

I think the issue that deserves consideration is the production of the print rather than the camera. Is there access to a darkroom? What are the formats available there? Is he scanning and printing digitally? Color? B&W?

Alan Gales · May 27, 2017

How about a Mamiya C220?. You can pick one up off Ebay with an 80mm lens for $200. They are very robust, weigh the same as a Hasselblad, and you can change lenses on them. Also lenses for the camera are dirt cheap. There are also additional finders available if you son does not care for a waist level finder. With bellows focussing they also close focus if he wants to show some architectural detail. Just make sure he buys a Paramender to adjust the camera on the tripod to avoid parallex when doing close up photography. Oh, paramenders are cheap and easily available on Ebay too.

Meow7 · May 27, 2017

Some really good ideas here! Thanks! The Bronica SQ looks really interesting, though there are numerous models... SQ-Ai, SQ-A, SQ-Ai R etc. I was looking at this one.. Body only, I like the grip. Is that helpful or a hindrance. I'm sure it adds weight since it needs batteries.

Also, what is the benefit of the TLR vs SLR?

As for printing I have a Beseler 45 and all the film carriers, except I modified the 6x6 to be 6x4.5. Also at his school they have full blown darkroom... and I have the scanner.

Meow7 · May 27, 2017

jspillane said:
I currently own three different 6x6 cameras and no 6x4.5, 6x7 or 6x9 cameras though, so maybe I am biased towards the format! My feeling has always been that if I need 6x9, I probably am better off moving to shooting 4x5.

I can definitely see that to be a viable argument. If you are going to go big, go bigger!

Meow7 · May 27, 2017

Sorry forgot to add link
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZENZA-BRONI...827660?hash=item4b1809924c:g:UfkAAOSwA3dYXUa6

Meow7 · May 27, 2017

RalphLambrecht said:
How about a Hasselblad 500c for his 18th.they can be found for less than1200 are very robust sand make him so poor,he can never get into drugs a present he wil charisma for the rest of his life and you can use it too.

Yes, and I can use it too!!!

jimjm · May 27, 2017

Meow7 said:
Some really good ideas here! Thanks! The Bronica SQ looks really interesting, though there are numerous models... SQ-Ai, SQ-A, SQ-Ai R etc. I was looking at this one.. Body only, I like the grip. Is that helpful or a hindrance. I'm sure it adds weight since it needs batteries.

Also, what is the benefit of the TLR vs SLR?

As for printing I have a Beseler 45 and all the film carriers, except I modified the 6x6 to be 6x4.5. Also at his school they have full blown darkroom... and I have the scanner.

The Bronica SQ series is really flexible, lots of lenses and accessories available on the used market for good prices. You can easily find a body with lens, back and finder under your budget. I use mine for all my night shooting, and a lot of Architecture and portraits.

The SQ-A is my favorite. Very reliable. Has The Speed Grip which makes it easier to hand-hold. No motor drive available though. Can be fitted with a waist-level finder, prism finder (eye-level or 45-degree), metered finder or AE finder.
The big downside with the original SQ was that it has no mirror lock-up. For night and low-light shooting that's almost a necessity.
SQ-Ai has a few electronic advances and motor-drive capability. I don't think it's as reliable as the SQ-A. A motor-drive isn't much use when shooting medium-format.
SQ-AM is motor-driven only, no manual film advance and heavier than the other models.
SQ-B is the simplest model but has no metering capability with the metered finders.

The SQ lenses are very good (certain Hasselblad Zeiss lenses may be better) and I've never had a concern about image quality. There are earlier "S" lenses, and later "PS" lenses. The later lenses may have improved coatings and some have different optical designs.

SLR systems are generally heavier and bulkier than TLR's, but have a lot more flexibility with interchangeable lenses, finders and film backs. TLR's are easier to hand-hold and are better for a "carry-around all day" camera. I've got a number of Rolleicords and Rolleiflexes, and they're a lot of fun and probably quicker to use. Mamiya TLR's have interchangeable lenses, but I found them much heavier then the Rolleis. Minolta and Yashica also made some quality TLR's. It may come down to your son's personal preference for one type over another.

Here's one handheld with the SQ-A and the standard 80mm S lens:

Alan Gales · May 27, 2017

Meow7 said:
Also, what is the benefit of the TLR vs SLR?

A TLR is better for shooting handheld because there is no mirror slap causing vibration. It is also a lot quieter in operation which is great for stealth photography. For portraiture you can see your subject the whole time without the viewfinder blacking out. When using colored filters for b&w the filter goes over the taking lens so you don't have to compose your subject and then add the filter or compose your subject while looking through the filter. TLR's just look cooler (and old fashioned) which puts people at ease around them.

For the negative aspects, you have to deal with parallex when close focussing. There are adapters like the Mamiya Paramender and Minolta Paradjuster which eleminate this problem when using a tripod. Some TLRs have lines in the viewfinder that help you compensate when shooting close up hand held. Works fine for walking along and then stopping to take a close up of a flower. In my opinion for serious macro the camera should be on a tripod anyway. Polarizers can be used with TLR's but are finicky to use. You have to adjust the polarizer off camera and then attach it to the camera lens for the photograph unless you own a Minolta Autocord with it's special dual polarizer. If you like to switch from color film to b&w often, there are no TLR's with film backs.

jgoody · May 27, 2017

Alan Gales said:
For the negative aspects, you have to deal with parallex when close focussing. There are adapters like the Mamiya Paramender and Minolta Paradjuster which eleminate this problem when using a tripod.

Don't forget the Rolleinars -- CU lens sets with parallex correction built into the viewing lens.

Prest_400 · May 27, 2017

I have a GW690 which I got in 2014, when I was a couple years his senior. After quite some consideration, it seemed quite a good bang x buck x format camera. 6x9 as the largest. I did look into the SQ and they were another great value proposition.
Quite happy with it, although sometimes I feel that a 6x6 is more suited to more casual shooting as it is more economic. Worth to note that the Fuji 645 is a nice complement to the GW. The camera is large but quite portable. I often took it in the backpack cycling. Recently got a Rolleicord (which BTW after its age showed up and jammed will require a CLA) and the TLR experience is quite different from a VF camera (RF or prism SLR) with its vintage allure.

tedr1 said:
I think the issue that deserves consideration is the production of the print rather than the camera. Is there access to a darkroom? What are the formats available there? Is he scanning and printing digitally? Color? B&W?

That's an interesting point. From my limited observation, the plentiness of 6x9 enlargers isn't such compared to 6x6 and 6x7, including the limited community darkrooms. Bummer: I have tended towards hybrid color instead but have an itch for going hardcore B&W one day. In the US I perceive the 2x3 enlargers are rather common.

The RB67's are crazy cheap, I've seen kits for 250€ in eBay from Japan (Fuji GW690 is also rather cheap). They are large. I would insist in revisiting the Fuji 645 because I don't think it is that limited. Once you crop 6x6, you end up with 645, and have more frames per roll. Makes for a 35mm substitute.

And if you spend less you can shoot more film!

Alan Gales · May 27, 2017

jgoody said:
Don't forget the Rolleinars -- CU lens sets with parallex correction built into the viewing lens.

Thanks. I didn't realize that was what the Rolleinars did. I have never had the pleasure of owning a Rolleiflex. I saw the Rolleinars described as close up lenses and misunderstood. Very interesting!

tedr1 · May 27, 2017

Medium format TLRs and SLRs..........

with a TLR you are looking down at the screen not at the subject. With portraiture this makes a difference, no eye contact, sometimes a plus, sometimes not. With a TLR the image on the screen is the right way up but laterally inverted.

with an SLR there may be a choice of viewing systems, some using the "look down" system, some using the prism finder, which corrects the lateral inversion. With the prism finder held to the eye the MF SLR is now very similar to a 35mm SLR, the camera is between the photographer and the subject.

film_man · May 27, 2017

Mamiya RB67, just perfect, just get a SD model (or at worst the S, the plain model is too old now). Or an RZ67, same thing really. Alternatively, if the size/weight is an issue I'd look at either a Bronica SQ, with a grip and prism it is like a big SLR. Another option is a Mamiya C330 (or one of the other Mamiya TLRs). You may also find a Pentax 6x7 for that kind of money but that means the 6x7 model, not the newer 67 or 67II.

I've owned all the above and my choice would be an RB/RZ.

paul ron · May 27, 2017

ETRS is awesome and a very versatile camera system. My son sharpened his teeth with that as his first MF and still loves it although hes gone up to the RB, youth strength!

He loves the RB for the large negative real estate.

BrianShaw · May 27, 2017

A 2x3 graphic with working rangefinder and a roll film back... chick magnet!

MattKing · May 27, 2017

tedr1 said:
Medium format TLRs and SLRs..........

with a TLR you are looking down at the screen not at the subject. With portraiture this makes a difference, no eye contact, sometimes a plus, sometimes not. With a TLR the image on the screen is the right way up but laterally inverted.

Unless you have a prism finder - available as an accessory for Mamiya C TLRs and (I think) Rollieflexes.
EDIT: A Mamiya C220 or the slightly more featured C330 would be my recommendation. I was 18-19 when I bought my C330 and 40 or so years of reliable service since...

removed account4 · May 27, 2017

i used a kodak reflex as my first MF camera and LOVED it. then i used a yashica 124matG and it was fantastic
a few years ago i bought a roliecord, an old pre war one, it was wonderful too. all these old TLRs are not to big or bulky
the only problem ( for some at least ) is there is only 1 lens but that can be freeing... a zeis ikon folder on the other hand folds up small and is a dream to use.
some also have cammed range finders so the user doesn't need to zone focus.
also a blast is an old baby graflex slr is also a nice camera, they can be used with a roll back and are perfectly weighted and a lot of fun to use... AND
like a baby press camera if you find sheet film holders your son can shoot paper negatives or coat his own metal or glass plates ... or slip into
wet plate work down the road ( and you can change lenses and use cheap ( as in not much $$ or home made ) barrel lenses ! ) ...
the other cameras mentioned are nice too ...

good luck !
john

Advice on inexpensive MF for the 17 y.o. son.

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