Advice on drums for paper printing

[brianssparetime]

I'm considering doing color RA4 printing, but I have a very constrained darkroom space.

I'd like to go with drums instead of trays for this reason, and I'd ideally like to be able to do 8x10, 11x14, and 16x20 sized prints.

I see some 16x20 drums on ebay (cibachrome, unicolor, besseler, and jobo of course), but I'd like a recommendation on what size/models.

- Do I need a different drum for each format, just the largest size drum, or is there a way to use extensions for this?
- Does my chemistry amount vary by print size or only by drum type?
- How do you do test strips economically?
- does anyone have a particular setup to recommend?

I would also pick up a roller. I've heard good things about the Simma-Roller (which not only rolls forward/back, but oscillates side to side).

- would this be a problem for smaller formats in bigger tubes?

I already have a capable enlarger.

Any advice appreciated.

 

[MattKing]

Drums work well with RC paper. I wouldn't count on them for fibre paper.
I like the Cibachrome drums. Mostly I use the 8x10 ones. They share end caps with a couple of other sizes - particularly the 11x14 tube.
I prefer working with at least four at a time - that way they have time to dry between uses. I also like to have six medium size wide mouth measuring graduates and three "shot" size ones. Three of the medium size graduates are used for filling the "shot" size graduates - one "shot" per run - and then the other three medium size graduates are used to empty the recently used chemicals. The wide mouth characteristic makes the emptying easier.
The drum size determines the chemistry amount. I re-use the chemistry. The print size determines the chemistry capacity - how many runs.
I can do four 4x6 prints at a time in the 8x10 tubes - I just stagger the way they are loaded in.
For tests I usually make multiple test exposure 4x5 prints on a single 8x10 sheet. I actually have a Saunders easel that is designed to do just that.
Any roller that works reliably will do the job. If the one you have only rolls one way, just flip the tube around every 30 seconds or so.
All of the setup fits in three or four flat bottom darkroom trays - helps catch drips and keep things clean.
Wear gloves, and have at hand a few rags to wipe up drips.

 

[koraks]

Drums work well with RC paper. I wouldn't count on them for fibre paper.

A friend of mine uses drums for FB as well.

But since this thread is about RA4/color, only RC applies.

I can't comment; I tried drums once but found the whole thing inconvenient and annoying. However, I don't print big and that makes things a lot easier in terms of trays or finding an old RT processor.

 

[Don_ih]

I print RA4 with a Jobo and a big drum. But it would be better if my drum was not so big, because I generally don't print bigger than 8x10. It's far better to use the smallest drum that will accommodate the print size. The Jobo keeps everything the correct temperature.

I have a Simma roller. It only goes in one direction, but it does "wobble" the tank to get a bit of back-and-forth flow. It's irritating because the tanks move off-centre and then want to tip off. I made the mistake of developing a sheet of 8x10 film in a Unicolor tank on it. Why was it a mistake? because there are no ribs in the tank and the dye on the back of the sheet didn't come off so I ended up agitating it in a tray of carbonate solution for 10 minutes to get it to clear. Anyway, I also had to keep recentring the tank so it wouldn't fall off. It was also noisy.

Test strips are irritating for colour. But if you have a small tank that you can use just for those, it might be ok. I found a colour sample print chart useful when starting, to compare for changing the filtration. You can get a Kodak Shirley ringaround poster from a Dataguide.

 

[brianssparetime]

Drums work well with RC paper. I wouldn't count on them for fibre paper.
I like the Cibachrome drums. Mostly I use the 8x10 ones. They share end caps with a couple of other sizes - particularly the 11x14 tube.

Thanks - this is useful to know.

The drum size determines the chemistry amount. I re-use the chemistry. The print size determines the chemistry capacity - how many runs.

Thanks.

 

[brianssparetime]

I print RA4 with a Jobo and a big drum. But it would be better if my drum was not so big, because I generally don't print bigger than 8x10. It's far better to use the smallest drum that will accommodate the print size. The Jobo keeps everything the correct temperature.

So you're recommending a drum for each size? Is that just to reduce chemistry usage, or for space considerations?

I have a Simma roller. It only goes in one direction, but it does "wobble" the tank to get a bit of back-and-forth flow. It's irritating because the tanks move off-centre and then want to tip off. I made the mistake of developing a sheet of 8x10 film in a Unicolor tank on it. Why was it a mistake? because there are no ribs in the tank and the dye on the back of the sheet didn't come off so I ended up agitating it in a tray of carbonate solution for 10 minutes to get it to clear. Anyway, I also had to keep recentring the tank so it wouldn't fall off. It was also noisy.

So you'd recommend against the simmar-roller?

Test strips are irritating for colour. But if you have a small tank that you can use just for those, it might be ok. I found a colour sample print chart useful when starting, to compare for changing the filtration. You can get a Kodak Shirley ringaround poster from a Dataguide.

So I need yet another drum for test strips?

 

[MattKing]

Oops - I realize I missed one important thing in my reply - almost all my experience is with black and white!
The same observations would apply for RA-4, but I would look to others for advice on chemistry capacity.
As may be obvious, room temperature RA-4 would be much easier to manage that ~100 F RA-4.

 

[MattKing]

So I need yet another drum for test strips?

Cibachrome made a cute little 4x5 drum for just this purpose.

 

[koraks]

So I need yet another drum for test strips?

For what it's worth, I rarely bother with test strips on RA4. Just use a full sheet for sizes up to 8x10, and use an 8x10 sheet as a test strip for larger sizes. RA4 paper is relatively cheap, especially if you purchase rolls.

 

[btaylor]

When I was using drums back in the ‘80’s I had a full selection of drum sizes, in terms of chemistry use it just made sense (smaller drum, less chemical), and the smaller drums are just easier to use. Like koraks, I also use an 8x10 sheet for test strips- it’s so cheap why not? The drums were made for 100 deg f processing, you just keep the chemistry at that temp and run a pre wash to heat the drum to temp. I used Beseler and Unicolor rollers, worked great. One nice thing about a 16x20 drum was that you could do 4 8x10’s at once, very efficient. I am now spoiled with a roller transport processor, though frankly it takes up a lot of space, takes time to set up and then drain and clean when done. So for a few prints the drums might be easier, quicker, overall.

 

[Don_ih]

So you're recommending a drum for each size? Is that just to reduce chemistry usage, or for space considerations?

So I need yet another drum for test strips?

The closer to the size of your print the drum is, the more easy it is to handle. And you'd use less chemistry -- just like @btaylor just said. A small drum for test strips would be handy. If you don't do test strips when you start doing RA4, expect to fill your garbage can quickly and wear out a lot of chemistry.

As for the Simma roller- I can only say I don't recommend the one I have. I don't know what the rest are like.

 

[xkaes]

I use Colourtronic tubes -- but they are all pretty much the same. Chemical use is minimal -- so I use fresh stuff every time.

8x10 -- 2 oz.
11x14 -- 3 oz.
16x20 -- 5 oz.
20x30 -- 8 oz.
30x40 -- 16 oz.
40x60 -- 32 oz. (I don't have this one)

Colourtronic has two cap sizes with adapters -- so the 16x20 chemical cup fits on the end of the 30x40 tube -- but tubes are so cheap, this is not really important. You can store one tube inside the other so they don't take up much space.

Colourtronic also sold water-bath tubs -- like JOBO -- with heaters (which you can make DIY), but for B&W I use Beseler & Unicolor rollers ($10 each, but some people pay 10 times as much).

I also use a Cibachrome 4x5 tube -- but only for developing a single sheet of 4x5 film.

 

[mshchem]

You can develop anything in tubes. I started out with some Premier stainless drums that float in tempered water. This was with fiber base COLOR paper Ektacolor Professional paper. With RA4 any plastic tube works great. I rescued some of these things from a camera store dumpster, the gave them to a friend.

 

[halfaman]

One additional comment. It is a bit difficult to put in and out a large sheet of paper inside a Jobo drum without damaging it (wrinkles). I have sometimes problems with 11x16", so 16x20" must be a challenge.

 

[L Gebhardt]

Jobo 2800 series drums have extension sections so you can make the drum longer. The shortest drum will do 4x5 prints so is nice for test strips. It’s also the same as a 2500 film drum. The print drums contain a small cup under the cap. I believe this is so you can pour in the liquid standing up and then tip it quickly to start, but I haven’t tested that since I use a Jobo processor. This size drum can also have a cogged lid or one with a wide mouth and cap.

Jobo also makes larger expert drums for sizes up to 20x24. I don’t think these support extensions and only have a cogged lid.

the Jobo system is well designed, but expensive. If you are using a roller system other than a Jobo processor I’m not sure it would be worth it to me over some of the other options.

 

[L Gebhardt]

One additional comment. It is a bit difficult to put in and out a large sheet of paper inside a Jobo drum without damaging it (wrinkles). I have sometimes problems with 11x16", so 16x20" must be a challenge.

You can lower the paper all the way into the drum and then put one edge under the first ridge and then run you finger up the other edge to get it under the second ridge. That way even 20x24 isn’t too bad. Getting it out requires first running a finger under the one edge to rai it away from the drum wall and then curling the print enough so it slides out without binding. If I recall the other drum systems I used were similar.

 

[Don_ih]

The print drums contain a small cup under the cap. I believe this is so you can pour in the liquid standing up and then tip it quickly to start,

That's exactly the reason. It works well.

 

[Ian C]

Here are some notes about my use of Jobo print tanks that new users might find useful.

I’ve been successfully processing RA4 prints in Jobo drums on a motorized roller base at 100º/38ºC for years. The key idea is to use this relatively high temperature so that the processing time is so short, that there in no significant temperature drop during the temperature-critical developing step.

I keep the solution bottles in a large dishwashing pan tempered to the processing temperature. After placing the exposed paper into the drum and securing the lid, I pour in a generous dose of water at approximately 105ºF/40.5ºC, let the drum spin for 15-20 seconds, dump the water and repeat.

Now the drum, lid and print are at least as warm as the 100ºF processing temperature. I set the timer for the developing step, dump out the water, pour in the correct dose of developer and let the drum spin for 60 seconds. In the meanwhile, I’ve poured a dose of tempered stop bath into a graduate. My stop bath is simply vinegar + water at about 1 + 5.

I prepare a dose of tempered blix, dump the water, pour in the blix, set the timer, and set the drum to spinning. Since the blix is acidic, as is the stop bath, there’s no need for a rinse between stop bath and blix. I dump the blix at the end of that process, and start rinsing with warmed water. I usually give my RA4 prints about 10 washes before removing them from the drum and drying.

In the above steps, only the developing step requires close control of the temperature. Since I prewarmed the tank and paper before introducing the 100ºF developer, I believe that it won’t experience any meaningful drop in temperature during the short 60-second developing step. The results I get making RA4 prints in this manner are identical to those I obtain using my CPP2 at 38ºC.

I use all of my RA4 solutions “one-shot” so there is no worry with cross contamination of chemicals. The resulting prints look identical to those I’ve gotten from commercial labs.

My reason for using the motorized roller base in the open air rather than the CPP2 is to preserve the Jobo for film developing, which requires longer developing cycles at elevated temperature. I bought the CPP2 in 1988 and want it to keep on working, as a replacement might be hard to find.

Here is the list of the Jobo 2800 series print drums.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1779771/Jobo-3012.html?page=12

There’s basically only two one-piece cylinder-and-base units: The 2820 Test drum that’s about 165 mm internal length and the 2830 with internal length 261.5 mm. Then there is the 2870 module, which is an extension cylinder—no bottom—with a cam-lock connection ring. It’s about the same length as the 2830 tank.

Jobo names the combinations with a unique 4-digit number that is printed on the upper section if it was sold in that particular combination.

I use the 2820 Test Drum for 1 or 2 prints of 4” x 5”, the 2830 for 1 or 2 prints of 8” x10”, the 2840 for a single 11” x 14” print, and the 2850 for a single 16” x 20” print.

Since I have the CPP2 with lift, I can use the 3063 for a single 20” x 24” print. The 3063 has a cog-drive lid only and no internal beaker, so it can only be used with large Jobo processor equipped with the cog drive and lift unit. It also requires the foot pump unit to pressurize the tank to pop off the lid at the end of the process.

The lids of the 2800 series tanks all have a beaker as part of the lid. That allows pouring in the solution with the tank standing upright (so long as you don’t put in more liquid than the beaker’s capacity). Then you turn the tank horizontal to pour the contents of the beaker into the tank as you begin rotation.

 

[koraks]

the short 60-second developing step

Is there a particular reason why you develop for 60 seconds instead of the default 45 seconds?

 

[mshchem]

Here are some notes about my use of Jobo print tanks that new users might find useful.

I’ve been successfully processing RA4 prints in Jobo drums on a motorized roller base at 100º/38ºC for years. The key idea is to use this relatively high temperature so that the processing time is so short, that there in no significant temperature drop during the temperature-critical developing step.

I keep the solution bottles is a large dishwashing pan tempered to the processing temperature. After placing the exposed paper into the drum and securing the lid, I pour in a generous dose of water at approximately 105ºF/40.5ºC, let the drum spin for 15-20 seconds, dump the water and repeat.

Now the drum, lid and print are at least as warm as the 100ºF processing temperature. I set the timer for the developing step, dump out the water, pour in the correct dose of developer and let the drum spin for 60 seconds. In the meanwhile, I’ve poured a dose of tempered stop bath into a graduate. My stop bath is simply vinegar + water at about 1 + 5.

I prepare a dose of tempered blix, dump the water, pour in the blix, set the timer, and set the drum to spinning. Since the blix is acidic, as is the stop bath, there’s no need for a rinse between stop bath and blix. I dump the blix at the end of that process, and start rinsing with warmed water. I usually give my RA4 prints about 10 washes before removing them from the drum and drying.

In the above steps, only the developing step requires close control of the temperature. Since I prewarmed the tank and paper before introducing the 100ºF developer, I believe that it won’t experience any meaningful drop in temperature during the short 60-second developing step. The results I get making RA4 prints in this manner are identical to those I obtain using my CPP2 at 38ºC.

I use all of my RA4 solutions “one-shot” so there is no worry with cross contamination of chemicals. The resulting prints look identical to those I’ve gotten from commercial labs.

My reason for using the motorized roller base in the open air rather than the CPP2 is to preserve the Jobo for film developing, which requires longer developing cycles at elevated temperature. I bought the CPP2 in 1988 and want it to keep on working, as a replacement might be hard to find.

Here is the list of the Jobo 2800 series print drums.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1779771/Jobo-3012.html?page=12

There’s basically only two one-piece cylinder-and-base units: The 2820 Test drum that’s about 165 mm internal length and the 2830 with internal length 261.5 mm. Then there is the 2870 module, which is an extension cylinder—no bottom—with a cam-lock connection ring. It’s about the same length as the 2830 tank.

Jobo names the combinations with a unique 4-digit number that is printed on the upper section if it was sold in that particular combination.

I use the 2820 Test Drum for 1 or 2 prints of 4” x 5”, the 2830 for 1 or 2 prints of 8” x10”, the 2840 for a single 11” x 14” print, and the 2850 for a single 16” x 20” print.

Since I have the CPP2 with lift, I can use the 3063 for a single 20” x 24” print. The 3063 has a cog-drive lid only and no internal beaker, so it can only be used with large Jobo processor equipped with the cog drive and lift unit. It also requires the foot pump unit to pressurize the tank to pop off the lid at the end of the process.

The lids of the 2800 series tanks all have a beaker as part of the lid. That allows pouring in the solution with the tank standing upright (so long as you don’t put in more liquid than the beaker’s capacity). Then you turn the tank horizontal to pour the contents of the beaker into the tank as you begin rotation.

Great summary and advice. Jobo processor not needed for RA-4, any drum preheated with hot water, use warmed solutions, you are ready to go.

 

[Ian C]

In answer to the question in post #19,

In the Tetenal-made RA kit I used years ago (branded Beseler for the U.S. enlarger maker), the 100ºF/38ºC developing-step time was given as 60 seconds. The results worked nicely. I simply continued using this as my standard RA4 developing time at 38ºC, adjusting enlarger exposure time to suit (something we all must do in any enlarging).

I see that newer kits list somewhat shorter times. The last Arista RA4 kit I used lists developing times:

(75°F/24°C, 3:20), (80°F/26.5°C, 2:25), (85°F/29°C, 1:40), (90°F/32°C, 1:10), (105°F/40.5°C, 0:50)

The results I get are satisfying and the exposure times are essentially the same. I follow the old adage, “If it ain’t broke—don’t fix it.”

 

[koraks]

“If it ain’t broke—don’t fix it.”

Absolutely. I see your chemistry assumes different timings than default RA4, so that explains most of the difference. It's apparently a little less active than the stuff that generally goes in to RT processors etc. Makes good sense for manual/drum development, too.

 

[Sirius Glass]

One additional comment. It is a bit difficult to put in and out a large sheet of paper inside a Jobo drum without damaging it (wrinkles). I have sometimes problems with 11x16", so 16x20" must be a challenge.

Does wrinkling occur with fiber based paper:?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Here are some notes about my use of Jobo print tanks that new users might find useful.

I’ve been successfully processing RA4 prints in Jobo drums on a motorized roller base at 100º/38ºC for years. The key idea is to use this relatively high temperature so that the processing time is so short, that there in no significant temperature drop during the temperature-critical developing step.

I keep the solution bottles in a large dishwashing pan tempered to the processing temperature. After placing the exposed paper into the drum and securing the lid, I pour in a generous dose of water at approximately 105ºF/40.5ºC, let the drum spin for 15-20 seconds, dump the water and repeat.

Now the drum, lid and print are at least as warm as the 100ºF processing temperature. I set the timer for the developing step, dump out the water, pour in the correct dose of developer and let the drum spin for 60 seconds. In the meanwhile, I’ve poured a dose of tempered stop bath into a graduate. My stop bath is simply vinegar + water at about 1 + 5.

I prepare a dose of tempered blix, dump the water, pour in the blix, set the timer, and set the drum to spinning. Since the blix is acidic, as is the stop bath, there’s no need for a rinse between stop bath and blix. I dump the blix at the end of that process, and start rinsing with warmed water. I usually give my RA4 prints about 10 washes before removing them from the drum and drying.

In the above steps, only the developing step requires close control of the temperature. Since I prewarmed the tank and paper before introducing the 100ºF developer, I believe that it won’t experience any meaningful drop in temperature during the short 60-second developing step. The results I get making RA4 prints in this manner are identical to those I obtain using my CPP2 at 38ºC.

I use all of my RA4 solutions “one-shot” so there is no worry with cross contamination of chemicals. The resulting prints look identical to those I’ve gotten from commercial labs.

My reason for using the motorized roller base in the open air rather than the CPP2 is to preserve the Jobo for film developing, which requires longer developing cycles at elevated temperature. I bought the CPP2 in 1988 and want it to keep on working, as a replacement might be hard to find.

Here is the list of the Jobo 2800 series print drums.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1779771/Jobo-3012.html?page=12

There’s basically only two one-piece cylinder-and-base units: The 2820 Test drum that’s about 165 mm internal length and the 2830 with internal length 261.5 mm. Then there is the 2870 module, which is an extension cylinder—no bottom—with a cam-lock connection ring. It’s about the same length as the 2830 tank.

Jobo names the combinations with a unique 4-digit number that is printed on the upper section if it was sold in that particular combination.

I use the 2820 Test Drum for 1 or 2 prints of 4” x 5”, the 2830 for 1 or 2 prints of 8” x10”, the 2840 for a single 11” x 14” print, and the 2850 for a single 16” x 20” print.

Since I have the CPP2 with lift, I can use the 3063 for a single 20” x 24” print. The 3063 has a cog-drive lid only and no internal beaker, so it can only be used with large Jobo processor equipped with the cog drive and lift unit. It also requires the foot pump unit to pressurize the tank to pop off the lid at the end of the process.

The lids of the 2800 series tanks all have a beaker as part of the lid. That allows pouring in the solution with the tank standing upright (so long as you don’t put in more liquid than the beaker’s capacity). Then you turn the tank horizontal to pour the contents of the beaker into the tank as you begin rotation.

See BOLDED SECTION, PE recommended using stop bath to avoid cross contamination and other problems. Do a search on color development with PE's name.

 

[Ian C]

Regarding the question of post #23:

I processed a 16" x 20" Ilford MGFB IV print in a Jobo drum. As the FB paper absorbed the solutions, it expanded—a lot. The ribs holding the ends in place forced the expanding print to buckle, causing the emulsion to kink sharply in a manner that couldn’t be ironed out in the usual method of flattening with a heavily-weighted, plastic-surfaced sheet of particleboard. For practical purposes, the kinked print was ruined.

You can process an RC print in a drum, as it is, like color paper, totally encapsulated in waterproof plastic resin. The paper core stays dry.