hello all. I'm planning to buy many developers and running an experiment that will test the differences in all of them.
I was hoping for some advice and ideas on how best to run the experiment.
I'm planning to use a filmomat 2020 to develop the films
and scanning on an imacon 848 (making the levels flat from end to end)
I'm going to shoot one or two scenes and was planning on using TX400 possibly hp5, and tmax as well.
I also have an hs1800 but feel that the imacon will produce less biased results (per film) but lmk if that's not true.
I'm planning on having:
perceptol
tmax dev
hc110
ilfotech-3/ilfosol 3 forget the name
DDX
photographers formulary (like three)
d76
cinestill monobath powder version
and any other suggestions would be welcomed.
thank you!
I've been thinking of something very similar for a while, but other projects always interfered, and it doesn't look like things will change in the next few weeks...
so, very curious about your results. a few comments:
- as mentioned above, try to keep everything absolutely constant, specially lighting.
- I'd definitely include Kodak XTOL (and/or Adox XT-3), as this is one of my favourite developers for many films.
Also, Adox FX-39 II can be fantastic with lower ISO films.
- I'd probably skip cinestill monobath.
- I'd try to include some really dark shadows and bright highlights in the test scene.
- The Imacon 848 unfortunately doesn't have enough resolution to show the difference in grain texture well. If you want, feel welcome to get in touch with me and I'll scan it for you on significantly higher resolution for free since it might save me the effort to run a similar test myself (you can send me a test negative before to check for yourself if it's worth the trouble with shipping).
I take it you're planning to shoot this on 135?
which camera and lens are you planning to use?
Compare XTOL to XT-3. Please.
I've developed my own scanner since I was not satisfied from what I could get out of the existing options for very large prints (been scanning with an Imacon 848 for a few years before that). It can do up to 40'000ppi but the sweet spot is around 10-15'000ppi for grain texture, with 20'000ppi for some special films.and yes I'll scan it on my end, but I have no problem sending them to you after I scan. What scanner will you be using?
I never used the Summicron M 35mm, it probably depends a bit of the version. I'd expect most versions to be best around F5.6 at the center, but others will have more experience to comment on that.yes I'll do 35mm - actually I also have an RZ67 and a few lenses. I can do 120 as well (I will do 120 now that you mention it actually)
Leica MP - summicron f2 35mm. what aperture would make the most sense?
btw i heard that XTOL dies imediatly when it's done with no warning. is this true?
Save your time and check out the naked photographer he tests and compares many films.
hello all. I'm planning to buy many developers and running an experiment that will test the differences in all of them.
I was hoping for some advice and ideas on how best to run the experiment.
I'm planning to use a filmomat 2020 to develop the films
and scanning on an imacon 848 (making the levels flat from end to end)
I'm going to shoot one or two scenes and was planning on using TX400 possibly hp5, and tmax as well.
I also have an hs1800 but feel that the imacon will produce less biased results (per film) but lmk if that's not true.
I'm planning on having:
perceptol
tmax dev
hc110
ilfotech-3/ilfosol 3 forget the name
DDX
photographers formulary (like three)
d76
cinestill monobath powder version
and any other suggestions would be welcomed.
thank you!
I won't skip the cinestill but I'll deff include the Xtol and XT-3
and yes I'll scan it on my end, but I have no problem sending them to you after I scan. What scanner will you be using?
yes I'll do 35mm - actually I also have an RZ67 and a few lenses. I can do 120 as well (I will do 120 now that you mention it actually)
Leica MP - summicron f2 35mm. what aperture would make the most sense?
also for the RZ I have the 110mm, the 37mm fish eye, the 180mm but I also have a basically brand new no molds etc 50mm ULD version
Ok I will!
btw i heard that XTOL dies imediatly when it's done with no warning. is this true?
Save your time and check out the naked photographer he tests and compares many films.
This is just one of many.
I'm afraid you'll be spending a lot of time and effort to find nothing new. What are you trying to accomplish? Go out and create some images instead. I know what I'm talking about,having been an atestomaniac myself
If you use deionized water, i.e. purified water, stock XTOL, unused, keeps almost indefinitely in completely full PET or glass bottles. Certainly 6 to 12 months no trouble.
Be sure to employ a sensitometer and densitometer. Otherwise your results will be subjective and very difficult to compare with other people’s tests.
What are you testing, and why are you testing it? Until that is clear, you cannot define a methodology. Doing one film and several developers, or one film with several developers, is a lot of work. You need to define your criteria, and how to measure them in a manner that is repeatable by someone else.
Putting together the experimental protocol is the hard part. putting a lot of film in front of a standard subject and stewing it in a lot of developers is just consistent (and boring) work.
I assume the purpose of the tests is to gauge image quality. In that case:
Be sure films are developed to the same contrast! Contrast has a big effect on grain. As development time increases, contrast and grain increase, so you will probably need to develop three strips for each film+dev combination to ensure you hit the correct contrast. To obtain a development time that yields the correct contrast, you will need to:
With this development time, you can photograph the same scene with all films, and objectively compare results.
- Expose steps using a sensitometer. Or, using a precise light source, contact-expose a Stouffer step-tablet onto a strip of film.
- Develop with your trial time, wash, fix, dry.
- Use a densitometer to measure the steps.
- Compute gamma or CI. CI is probably corresponds more closely to perceived contrast. I suggest the usual aim CI of 0.58.
- If contrast is too far from your aim, estimate a new development time, and go back to step 1.
Mark
With 10 developers (initial post) and 3 different film types, you will be dealing with 30 tests, unless you make some common-sense compatibility pairings. Using 35 mm film gives you lot's of unnecessary duplicate images, assuming you are using one or two test images for all of the tests on each roll.hello all. I'm planning to buy many developers and running an experiment that will test the differences in all of them.
I was hoping for some advice and ideas on how best to run the experiment.
I'm planning to use a filmomat 2020 to develop the films
and scanning on an imacon 848 (making the levels flat from end to end)
I'm going to shoot one or two scenes and was planning on using TX400 possibly hp5, and tmax as well.
I also have an hs1800 but feel that the imacon will produce less biased results (per film) but lmk if that's not true.
I'm planning on having:
perceptol
tmax dev
hc110
ilfotech-3/ilfosol 3 forget the name
DDX
photographers formulary (like three)
d76
cinestill monobath powder version
and any other suggestions would be welcomed.
thank you!
You will find that they affect the films differently. I am afraid this will be your only finding unless you take a more rigorous approach towards your experiments.I'm really running the experiment to see how diff developers affect the different films
and any other suggestions would be welcomed.
Much of this has been done before, this one is particularly well done: https://fotoimport.no/Filmtest
the Hasseblad will simply not be able to capture the real film grain structure and sharpness."About the test procedure
This test was run with 135 film, scanned with a Hasselblad scanner with 3F scanning in 6300 ppi. The image of the bird and the text is a heavy crop of the entire negative (above), to show the film's grain structure and sharpness.
The test subject was photographed with Canon EOS 1N, 50mm 1.4, Blender 8, 0.5sec shutter time on 100iso film."
With 10 developers (initial post) and 3 different film types, you will be dealing with 30 tests, unless you make some common-sense compatibility pairings. Using 35 mm film gives you lot's of unnecessary duplicate images, assuming you are using one or two test images for all of the tests on each roll.
You can save on film by cutting the exposed roll into sections that would go in the different developers. Of course some images would be cut-into, but with proper test images, or enough duplicate images, that should not matter. Bulk loading a few frames-worth on each roll would help, but then you are dealing with buying hundreds of feet of film.
As Ralph Lambrecht mentions, you will be spending a lot of time and probably not discovering much new. You can simplify by starting with bigger differences, and considering your preferences:
Picking tabular grain film and traditional grain film, with similar ISO (or some other practical comparison, like a lower contrast versus higher contrast film).
Picking two widely different developers (solvent versus non-solvent, staining versus non-staining, etc.)
This way, you'll see enough difference to get a a sense of what direction to go depending on your own preferences. With the numerous proposed tests, there would be hair-splitting differences to deal with.
Scanning the film adds its own complexity (does it look better with this or that scanner?). Scanners add noise too. When I compare a scan to a darkroom print, the scan looks grainier, so grain comparisons will be more difficult than simply looking at the negative under a microscope or maybe a 20x hand lens (these are cheap).
Then there's relative cost, shelf-life of chemicals, availability, dilutions, format (135 v. 120) -- it gets crazy real fast.
Here's a recent example from my own experience, where a crude test is enough when you know what you are looking for:
I wanted to try a tabular-grain film to use in a small camera (Voigtlander Vito II) on climbing trips, where I can't be messing around with the camera. I wanted less grain, but was concerned about exposure latitude and box speed. I tried Delta 100 and used the sunny-16 rule (and it was not always sunny or mid-day), and some bracketing when I thought it was worth it. Processed it in ID-11 (what I always have around). I really liked the results -- the main thing, the exposure latitude, was fine, and all of the shots were printable, most if not all very easy to print, and less grain shows with FP4, what I usually use. Hardly a rigorous test, but enough to help me make a decision, and I spent more time taking pictures and spent less money than with comprehensive testing. Maybe I will use a t-grain developer next time and see how that works out.
Much of this has been done before, this one is particularly well done: https://fotoimport.no/Filmtest
And a translated version, thanks to google: https://fotoimport-no.translate.goog/Filmtest?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
It's very useful because you can see the images made with different developers on a single film side by side and compare, plus the H&D curves are at the bottom. It's a very comprehensive test.
And example with HP5: https://fotoimport.no/filmHP5
You will find that they affect the films differently. I am afraid this will be your only finding unless you take a more rigorous approach towards your experiments.
Be systematic. This means, expect to do a lot of work...
Determine which development times and agitation schemes you will use for each developer. In doing so, you may want to standardize on a specific gamma/contrast for each film tested across all developers. After all, it won't make much sense to compare e.g. HP5+ developed to a gamma of 0.8 and to a gamma of 0.5 in terms of grain appearance, and then concluding it has something to do with the different developers used. You'd have to develop to the same gamma in both instances - or alternatively use a single developer for both contrasts to say something about grain.
In other words, you seem to be focusing on "developer" as the independent variable of your investigation, but you'll have to think about other factors that influence the end result as well ("confounders"). If you don't control for these, there will be no end to the discussion about whether you did it right (which, arguably, you wouldn't have) and the results will never quite convince.
So one of the first steps will be to establish a development process for each developer and film combination that gives the same gamma - and you'll have to do some assumptions (and standardize on those, too) in determining gamma, since the curve shape produced by the different developers will be a little different. Reading up on sensitometry and densitometry will be required, and you will have to fashion some kind of densitometer and provide for a means to expose your film in a controlled way (this can be with a step wedge, contact printed with a known/stable light source) in order to perform sensitometry.
Another issue worth mentioning is the choice of dependent variables. What kind of differences will you be looking for? Presumably something like granularity, H/D curve shape, effective film speed, rendering of fine detail (or whatever proxy of 'acutance' you may choose) and perhaps one or two more things. Having picked those, you'll have to operationalize, which means choosing the indicators you'll use to measure/observe these variables. How are you going to observe or measure granularity in such a way that it allows for a systematic comparison?
I also concur with the comments made by others to very critically review the scanning process and perhaps even do what @Steven Lee suggests: skip it altogether. It'll still leave you with the challenge of making the comparison visible, but in part you can solve this through measurement (e.g. curve shape, densitometry). In part, it's quite feasible in the darkroom since it's straightforward to make identical prints from similar negatives, and you won't have any black box of scanner software and firmware (auto exposure!!!) that can spoil the broth.
Putting all this in a conceptual model can help spot the (1) complexity of the task and (2) prepare for the project by identifying the various factors that can influence the end result. A partial model could look like this:
View attachment 365761
Mind you; you can debate whether certain variables are moderator or independent variables (/antecedents), and the model is also not quite complete, since it omits for instance anything related to measurement of the end result. What it does show is the risk of the 'capital offense' of picking a developer, not minding about the rest, making some scans and then proclaim that "Developer X does Y on this film". So much happens in-between and around that (very indirect) relationship as to make any such conclusion void, really.
Alternatively, don't mind all this, just soup some randomly exposed film (street scenes or so) in whatever developers you fancy and have some fun doing it. It'll be a whole lot easier and probably a lot more fun, but please, if you choose this approach, don't draw any conclusions from it. I hope the argument above and in particular the (partial) conceptual model explains why this wouldn't work well.
If you want to proceed with the project, I'd suggest to keep it simple and limit the project to ONE type of film and 3-4 developers, max. Standardize all the rest, and be super clear and consistent on the choice of variables and indicators and your observation/measurement methods. Consider that if you add just one more type of film to the list, the table of all possible combinations explodes since it'll be based on the cartesian product of the factors chosen. One film and four developers is four options, provided you standardize all the rest in a sensible manner. Two films and four developers already makes eight options, and so on.
Finally, since setting up the whole shebang concerning control variables (determining development process parameters so you get comparable outcomes) and indicators, I'd suggest splitting up the project into two parts: a preparatory project in which you determine the test procedures and conditions, and a second phase where you can do the actual work. If you do phase 1 properly, phase 2 will be a straightforward taks and the results will basically just roll out of the project.
Hope this helps. Also, feel free to just go out and have fun with your camera instead. Ask yourself what the added value is of knowing that developer X gives slightly tighter grain on film Y when scanned in scanner Z. It's not going to make a better photograph. Then again, if you find this kind of systematic test fun (which I can very well imagine, and to an extent I even share that inclination), by all means go ahead.
I like this test a lot and looked at the results in detail, and I find it shows a lot of interesting basic information (like film speed and curve).
however I'm not really fully convinced with the procedure used:
the Hasseblad will simply not be able to capture the real film grain structure and sharpness.
looking at the location of the crop of full test image:
the Canon 50mm 1.4 is unfortunately a rather poor lens to start with, and using a detail rather at the edge will only make matters worse. this is also indicated that the fact that they used it at F8, which would be well in the diffraction territory with a good lens (the really good ones are best at F4).
even the best lenses will start to loose very fine detail if we go more than 20% away from the center. lensrentals has probably the best test in that regard:
andExperiments For Ultra High Resolution Camera Sensors
GEEK ALERT!! Let's be absolutely clear; this is not a useful article in regards to your technique. It won't help your photography or videography become better. It won't help you choose equipment any time in the next couple of years. It won't provide any fodder for your next Forum War. It's just...www.lensrentals.com
More Ultra High-Resolution MTF Experiments
GEEK ALERT!! Let’s be absolutely clear; this is not a practical or useful article. It won’t help your photography or cinematography become better. It won’t help you choose equipment any time in the next couple of years. It won’t provide any fodder for your next Forum War. It’s just a geek...www.lensrentals.com
would you mind elaborating on gamma?
go to digital truth, look up the development time, shoot the film at box speed and develop and look at what i like. I will scan and I will print, since those are both things I do as well.
however I'm not really fully convinced with the procedure used:
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