Advice on changing our retail developer

Hello all,

I realize this is probably a better question to be asking our local community, but we need to make a change and feel asking customers as they come in could take more time than needed. Plus I think it will be up to us to sell the customer on the new product with knowledge of said product. What better place to come than Apug?

So, as of now we have be carrying the entire line of Sprint chemicals as they are the most used by the surrounding schools we supply. We are not yet into a full year of offering retail products (lab only prior) and therefore need to keep certain things down to a minimum. I know the general rule would be to offer a few different brands and we hope to get there before too much longer, but for the meantime we need to keep this to one brand only. This is where I would like your opinions as to which we should switch to? Sprint is fine if we are ordering for a large quantity as we can factor in the insane shipping charges($419 on a $1000 order). On small scale for keeping the shelves full, the extra shipping is putting us in an area that we are not comfortable charging and trying to keep our customers.

Film and Paper please, and keep in mind we are all broke, so what would you buy locally if you could?

Ilford is our first thought.

Should we be looking at others like Foma brands as I have read recently they are buying from the old Agfa plant (R09=rodinal). What about their paper chemical and fixer, etc...

Thank You,
Jody

I am not sure I have understood your aim correctly but given that shipping charges are insane(over 40% of cost!!) then I'd buy powder products. Most schools doing analogue B&W in the U.K use ID11 anyway and Bromophen is a powder paper developer. No point is paying for water at these kind of shipping charges.

pentaxuser

Adox has some nice film and paper and I believe developer too. They own the old Agfa aquipment. That is about all I can tell you. I don't have very much B&W knowledge when it comes to development.

Personally, I'd prefer the Kodak products. Not only do I like their films better than Ilford's, but you're also somewhat insulated from international currency fluctuations with a US made product. I'm also quite happy to use their powdered D-76 and XTOL developers, along with Dektol for prints. They are dependable and more reasonably priced than their English counterparts. There's not a film or paper made that won't work and work well with these products. I would not consider buying any liquid concentrate developers because of the shipping costs. I absolutely refuse to pay for shipping something that is mostly water when I can do that myself. There are, naturally, exceptions. Rapid fixers, stop baths, some toners, and highly concentrated developers like HC-110 and Rodinal are not available in dry form, so I'm forced to use the liquid concentrates there.

Regarding Foma's products, I like their films and papers. But you might not get much traction selling them. Freestyle is big, and they sell the most popular Foma products under their house brand, "Arista.EDU Ultra," at bargain basement prices. You might be able to match or beat their price when selling small volumes over the counter. You probably won't be able to get near their price for folks who buy in bulk.

Ektagraphic said:

Adox has some nice film and paper and I believe developer too. They own the old Agfa aquipment.

Click to expand...

Adox so far had some custom emulsion making and coating done by a company that is started by three former Agfa people who acquired a pilot and a production line from Agfa resp. AgfaPhoto.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

I would try Arista from Freestyle. It is inexpensive. The vc rc ultra paper prints well and has decent contrast, the film shoots well for what it is again can be got for under$2 per roll. And Freestyle is a partner with APUG. Worth considering. They also offer Arista chems which should be fine for students starting out.

I work in an auto parts stores. We sell chemicals and motor oil and there are an unknown number of choices. Seldom do we turn away a customer due to brand loyalty we do not carry. Once the price and features are seen most relent.

I realize the cost is high, but it would be really nice if we could support local (small) manufacturers, such as Sprint or Clayton.

If I still had my store which I sold a few years ago because of age, I would go with Ilford. Their films are easily recognized by all as are their papers and chemicals. My experience with freestyle is that you cannot buy their branded materials cheap enough to make a profit when you resell them.Efke Films and papers are liked by some, and I use them also, but they are not a major part of the market as is Ilford. I've always found Ilford to be extremely easy to deal with.
I would suggest Kodak, except that their original order quantity is too large for most very small businesses, as I believe yours is. good luck, it's nice to see someone keeping film alive.

Have you expressed these concerns to Sprint, and asked them if they can offer you anything better?

If you are willing to commit to a certain minimum order over a year, they might be willing to lower the shipping charges per order.

Otherwise, I would vote for Kodak chemistry and/or Ilford.

Matt

jerk151 said:

Hello all,

I realize this is probably a better question to be asking our local community, but we need to make a change and feel asking customers as they come in could take more time than needed. Plus I think it will be up to us to sell the customer on the new product with knowledge of said product. What better place to come than Apug?

So, as of now we have be carrying the entire line of Sprint chemicals as they are the most used by the surrounding schools we supply. We are not yet into a full year of offering retail products (lab only prior) and therefore need to keep certain things down to a minimum. I know the general rule would be to offer a few different brands and we hope to get there before too much longer, but for the meantime we need to keep this to one brand only. This is where I would like your opinions as to which we should switch to? Sprint is fine if we are ordering for a large quantity as we can factor in the insane shipping charges($419 on a $1000 order). On small scale for keeping the shelves full, the extra shipping is putting us in an area that we are not comfortable charging and trying to keep our customers.

Film and Paper please, and keep in mind we are all broke, so what would you buy locally if you could?

Ilford is our first thought.

Should we be looking at others like Foma brands as I have read recently they are buying from the old Agfa plant (R09=rodinal). What about their paper chemical and fixer, etc...

Thank You,
Jody

Click to expand...

One thing to check is if Sprint will ship collect, then check with various carriers to see if they can give you a deal on shipping. The problem with a lot of this stuff is that some chemicals are considered dangerous goods, (usually class 8, corrosive), that can mean a higher shipping cost, because the carrier must have someone physically move it from place to place within hubs and terminals, rather then machine sorting it, and there is often extra paperwork as well. Paper and film do not have these limitations.

First, what Matt said. If Sprint is what is used by the local schools, you may have have difficultly convincing them to switch. I agree that $400 shipping on a $1000 order is excessive; does Sprint say why so high? My guess is that they

But if a switch is necessary, I'd consider a full line vendor (such as Kodak or Ilford). If you carry b&w film, I'd lean toward that manufacturer. But I would offer some limited alternatives in developers even if you have to buy those from a Freestyle or B&H and mark up only enough to break even on those. My reasoning is that most people are more particular about developer than stop bath or fixer. Offering a choice can cement loyalty with your customers.

Sometimes you can buy cheaper from a high volume low cost retailer like B&H than you can direct from the manufacturer. Order volumes can be smaller which limits your capital tied up.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

I would also state, regardless of your decision, that you can place a prepaid special order for any old thing their little old hearts desire.

maybe you should have your schools purchase their chemistry directly from sprint.
they have an order area on their website.

Thank you for all the replies.

aparat I agree with supporting local and small as we are one ourselves and we will continue to purchase from them as the schools continue to order. We are not and will not try to change the minds of the schools themselves. Our "in-store" supplies are fairly small, as in keeping a case of each on the shelf. Ordering a case of 1 liter bottles and paying 40% more for shipping each time is quite excessive.

We have spoken with Sprint a number of times about this. They are in fact a nice company to deal with and we like their product. However, our store is located (and has been since 1985) in a historic district and in a two story old house rebuilt from the inside. Therefore, we have no "dock". Sprint uses 1 of 2 carriers, it is not clear as to if these are the only carriers to service Rhode Island or not, but it is who they use and they will not deliver to us unless it is on a truck w/ a lift gate. A lift gate is completely unnecessary, but those seem to be their rules. Equalling a extra charge. We are the last place in town to carry these types of products so we want to be sure and get it right.

It may help to know that we do try to bring as much as we can to the local people in the film and paper end. Therefore we do make some purchases from Freestyle, but don't try to compete with their branded stuff like Arista.

We carry films from:

B&W
Ilford (entire line)
Kentmere (Ilford)
Efke
Fomapan
Rollei 100 & 400 (I've heard it is Agfa APX?)
Kodak
Fuji

Paper
Ilford
Oriental
Foma
Kentmere


We know some of this is also branded as Aritsa, but we want people to know what exactly they are shooting and they aren't having to pay for shipping themselves. We don't make a killing off of a lot of the films, but we do get some of it back for process. Mostly 120 and 4x5.

The question as to carrying powder vs paying for water, I understand the reasoning behind that and will bring it up with the others in the shop. Liquid does seem to be a bit easier for mixing and maybe that was the thinking to begin with.

jnanian said:

maybe you should have your schools purchase their chemistry directly from sprint.
they have an order area on their website.

Click to expand...

They have done that before and have voiced it easier to order everything at once from one place. Plus their front office likes it that way, one check, one time for one PO. They are 2 Universities a couple of community colleges and a couple high schools. Plus that would not help support us as the last living lab in town. Some of them have 4x5 classes (1 which is chrome) and they need us for processing and we need them, but 4x5 processing alone isn't going to keep us in business. Not anymore.

If cost is the absolute driving factor, go with re-branded products from Freestyle. They also sell rebranded Kodak chemistry.

If you just want good products, reasonable cost, powder form, then go with Kodak Xtol Developer for film and Zone VI developer for prints and buy from Calumet. Their shipping is reasonable. If you are patient and can wait until Christmas time, Calumet also offers a free shipping special through Upromise so that is a good time to stock up on liquid fixer!

You could also see if "depot delivery" with Sprint's existing carriers is feasible. It would mean your having to pick it up from a local depot, but might make shipping cost palatable.

jerk151 said:

The question as to carrying powder vs paying for water, I understand the reasoning behind that and will bring it up with the others in the shop. Liquid does seem to be a bit easier for mixing and maybe that was the thinking to begin with.

Click to expand...

First price both liquids and powders where you can make the profit you need, then give the schools your considered opinion.

Another option is getting powders and then making up stock solution batches for them, you could even work out recycling the bottles.

Operate a Pharmacy

Stock up on the chemicals and buy a good scale.
Don't forget the weighing papers. Orders in one
day ready the next. That's the way I'd do it.
Hows that for an alternative?

Local and mail order. A Sponsoring of APUG
plus a Web site will add income. Dan

Jody you might want to talk to me. I can help and am interested in supporting your efforts.
CLAYTON CHEMICAL 800 231-8872

mgb74 said:

You could also see if "depot delivery" with Sprint's existing carriers is feasible. It would mean your having to pick it up from a local depot, but might make shipping cost palatable.

Click to expand...

That's a good idea. See if the shipping company can hold it at the delivery terminal's dock for you to come pick up. A lot of companies will do this (my dad worked for Overnite for 33 years, and I put a few years in with several myself) and you may be able to save on the lift-gate fee that way. It's worth checking into if their delivery terminal is not too far from you.

Michael

McFortner said:

That's a good idea. See if the shipping company can hold it at the delivery terminal's dock for you to come pick up. A lot of companies will do this (my dad worked for Overnite for 33 years, and I put a few years in with several myself) and you may be able to save on the lift-gate fee that way. It's worth checking into if their delivery terminal is not too far from you.
Michael

Click to expand...

It might be complicated by the Hazardous goods aspect, but is there a local firm with a dock that would accept your order for you and let you pick it up? perhaps someone in the printing business for example who already handles chemicals.

The rules can bite, technically YOU would have to have TDG status to pick up anywhere, and so would your customers. if the regulations were strictly applied. I think is is CFR 49 if I remember, a totally opaque bit of regulation of I ever read one.

Update:

We did end up having Sprint drop ship directly to the school and it saved us $300 in shipping charges. But that still doesn't help us at the shop. We have ordered some Ilford for the time being, just to keep something on the shelf. The most interesting part of the week however, was a conversation I had with Clayton. Fairly short talk, but very nice and willing to help. They emailed me lots of information on their products and I have printed it out to read over the weekend. I am pretty excited about what I see so far and really can't wait to try some.

As for certifications/status and so on for hazardous goods, we are on the ball, getting information. I am letting someone else handle that part however.

Thanks for the replies and help so far

UPDATE- TESTING I HAVE DONE

Hello,

I thought I would share some results that I have gotten while looking into other developers.

In this thread I have mentioned that we were looking to replace our in store product (Sprint) and possibly the product that we provide to local schools. After speaking with Clayton Chemicals, we found that we may also be able to replace our in house replenishable sink line chemical as well (Kodak TMax RS) and all with the same one product. I have not really done this type of testing before, so I took a stab at what made sense to me. Being that I wanted to test the chemicals, not the film, and how they differ in grain structure, I felt I needed to see the grain in many different situations.
Example: How is it formed in the highlights at crisp focus and Bokeh, then the same throughout the rest of the tonal range. This is what I have done:

I set a camera on a tripod on the front porch of our lab.
On an overcast (yet bright) day as to not have a large a fluctuation in exposure
Framed a shot that had plenty of foreground, mid-ground and background
And tried to hit from white to black and everything in between.
Same camera (unmoved), same lens, same film, same exposures.

Canon F1
Canon 28mm F2.8
Ilford HP5+ 36exp


Shot list:
1. F2.8 - 1/1000th focused close @ 1.25/.04 ie. the bicycle tire
2. F2.8 - 1/500th "
3. F2.8 - 1/1000th Mid @ 5/1.5 The small tree just beyond the tire
4. F2.8 - 1/500th "
5. F2.8 - 1/1000th Infinity
6. F2.8 - 1/500th "
7. F8 - 1/125th Close
8. F8 - 1/60th "
9. F8 - 1/125th Mid
10. F8 - 1/60th "
11. F8 - 1/125th Infinity
12. F8 - 1/60th "
13. F22 - 1/15th Close
14. F22 - 1/15th Infinity

I advanced the film quite a few spaces (the same for each roll) and shot the list again.

The following image is a Contact scan of the four pieces of film processed four different ways. Shot list is left to right.
Top - 1. Kodak T-Max RS @ 70° - Stock - 6 mins in a deep tank sink line
2. Clayton F76+ @ 70° - 1+5 replenished - 6min 45 sec deep tank sink line
3. Clayton F76+ @ 70° - 1+9 - 6 mins 45 sec in small SS reels and tank
4. Sprint @ 70° - 1+9 - 9mins in small SSreels and tank


In the same order, I have scanned frame #7 of each with an Imacon scanner with the same defined settings and without any auto functions turned on. We have found that we preserve more detail by scanning B&W negatives in RGB and then Desaturating after, this is what I have done.

Same order for developers 1,2,3,4







It's probably a lot to process, but let me know your thoughts.

I also did this test with Kentmere 400 and will post that in a thread I started about Kentmere films some months ago.

jerk151 said:

.....
Film and Paper please, and keep in mind we are all broke, so what would you buy locally if you could?
Ilford is our first thought.
Should we be looking at others like Foma brands as I have read recently they are buying from the old Agfa plant (R09=rodinal). What about their paper chemical and fixer, etc...

Click to expand...

The Sprint concept is brilliant, and it is a shame that you have to consider looking elsewhere. However, if you are considering a slate-clearing approach, why not consider that Sprint down to earth & 'green' attitude and make your staple-diet materials those that are produced geographically closest to your store? When considering standard dev/stop/fix you shouldn't need to go cherry picking stuff produced outside the US. All the Ilford chemicals in the US are home produced I believe.