Advice on buying a Graflex / Crown Graphic

david b · Oct 16, 2005

I am looking to buy a Graflex or Crown Graphic or Speed Graphic. I am looking for the 4x5 models.

I do not know anything about them but would like to know how to find out the age of the cameras, what lenses work with them, what backs rotate, etc.

I know so little about them, I don't even know how to focus one.

Any advice is serious appreciated. And for those of you who are the experts, pointing out ebay auctions would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
david in santa fe

Dave Parker · Oct 16, 2005

David,

Your best single source of information on the Graflex camera is the Graflex website located at www.glaflex.org the site is full of just about anything you might want to know about these cameras....

Also Rich who posts here is very knowledgable about these cameras.

Dave

RichSBV · Oct 16, 2005

Nobody can really give any advice until you know more what you're looking for and what questions to ask. But taking Dave's advice is the place to start. read everything there, then ask your questions...

On the subject of rotating backs, only the "Super" (Graphic or Speed Graphic) had them, and they'll cost you at least twiace that of a Pacemaker...

If you want a Pacemnaker Crown, buy the one Nikki is selling here on APUG. You'll never find a better deal.

Stepping up are the later model Top mounted rangfinder models. They have the advantage of using cams in the rangefinder system so that more than one lens can be used. The older models with the side rangefiner can only be adjusted for a single lens.

Stepping up are the Supers. They use cams for the rangefinder and have the rotating back and are made of metal instead of wood. The most expensive of the series to buy now...

Almost any modern lens can be used once mounted on the lensboard.

Do your reading, then ask specific questions. It's a whole lot easier...

BradS · Oct 16, 2005

david b said:
I am looking to buy a Graflex or Crown Graphic or Speed Graphic. I am looking for the 4x5 models.

I do not know anything about them but would like to know how to find out the age of the cameras, what lenses work with them, what backs rotate, etc.

I know so little about them, I don't even know how to focus one.

Any advice is serious appreciated. And for those of you who are the experts, pointing out ebay auctions would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
david in santa fe

Have to agree with Dave above. First stop should be the Graflex website. There is also a very well written if brief introduction to the type on photo.net. You might try to google for crown graphic or, speed graphic...or, even graflex.

I have to ask though....why are you "looking to buy" a crown or speed graphic?

david b · Oct 17, 2005

I am not sure why I want a graflex camera other than I do not own any large format gear. I have a hasselblad kit and an xpan, mamiya stuff, pentax 67, etc. You get the idea.

So I just thought before I go and dump a bunch of money in large format, I should try it first with a camera like the graflex.

And yes I will do my research. But if you all see something you think I should look at, please let me know.

MattCarey · Oct 17, 2005

david b said:
And yes I will do my research. But if you all see something you think I should look at, please let me know.

Well, as long as you asked--
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The camera was sold recently by Jim Galli, another well respected person on the site. $200 with all the toys (film holders, lens) seems like an excellent deal.

Here is another site mentioned by a previous post:

http://www.photo.net/equipment/large-format/speed-graphic

Matt

bobbysandstrom · Oct 17, 2005

The graphlex is a nice camera ( I use the schneider 135 off of one I bought). However, using movements with that thing is a pain and might be discouraging if you're just starting. That said, you can't beat the price of addmition!

Nick Zentena · Oct 17, 2005

david b said:
So I just thought before I go and dump a bunch of money in large format, I should try it first with a camera like the graflex.

And yes I will do my research. But if you all see something you think I should look at, please let me know.

If you want cheap then look for a B&J press camera. You lose the graflock back but gain some other things. It should be cheaper to. The B&J name alone knocks the price down.

juan · Oct 17, 2005

Also understand that the Graphics were press cameras, not poor-man's view cameras, so there is not a lot in movements. I enjoy mine (I have three) but use them mostly hand held. They will introduce you to large format, and are certainly worth having.

One disadvantage of the later cameras is the shutter that is cocked by twisting the lens. It has plastic (I think nylon) parts that in some cases have worn badly. They are particularly problamatic when using the 1/1000 shutter speed. Fred Lustig in Nevada had figured out how to rebuild them, but suffered a stroke a few years ago. I've read that he's back in business, but you should consider that he's probably the only person who works on this particular shutter.

I also recommend the graflex.org site.
juan

Kevin Roach · Oct 17, 2005

I'd be careful buying on ebay or anyplace where you cannot handle the camera. Most of the graflex cameras on ebay have bad bellows. You want to check carefully with a flashlight before buying. Finding a replacement might be expensive and making one is rewarding but difficult.

My first LF camera was a calumet monorail. Cheaper than a graflex and more movements. Big and heavy though. A graflex is easier to haul around in the woods.

RichSBV · Oct 17, 2005

These 'press' cameras do make fine general purpose 4x5 cameras, within the obvious limits of it's front movements. Many can be overcome by a little extra work such as forward front tilt...

The 1000 shutter that came with the Super Speed Graphic is not recommended for use by just about everyone. I bought a Super Speed because I sort of collect Graphic cameras and wnated one. I don't use the 1000 shutter though. It was immediately replaced with a Nikkor 135 for my 'normal' lens... If serviced, they do work well though, but the 1000 speed should be avoided from what I hear...

For a 'real' field camera, the Super works just fine and you generally have to pay for it.

The Pacemaker series Crown and Speeds also work fine, but do not have the revolving back or full front movements. They make a great hand-held camera and a great second camera. View cameras are wonderful for what they can do, but I wouldn't want to walk around hand-holding one all day! And I never could figure out how to attach a flash to my view?

For an introduction to LF, a Crown or Speed is perfect and it's a great second camera to keep after 'moving up'. The one mentioned above for sale is just a steal and a perfect example.

Something to remeber. There's so much to learn in moving to LF that adding full movements can very often confuse the learning process to the point of turning people off to it. I shoot mostly outdoors, landscapes & such. The only movement I ever use is slight front forward tilt and sometimes a little rise. Both are available on any Crown or Speed...

And in case noone has noticed yet, I'm just a little biased towards Gralfex cameras ;-) Even my 8x10's were made by them...

MikeS · Oct 17, 2005

RichSBV said:
I never could figure out how to attach a flash to my view?

Rich:

If your view happens to be a Graflex Graphic View ( I or II) then it's real easy to attach a flash to it! On the top of the front standard is a screw used to attach the compendium shade, just get a Graflex flash mounting bracket, and attach it to the front standard using the center hole, and the screw on top of the standard. Then you can mount any handle mount flash with the proper Graflex brackets onto the view!

Of course if you're using flash bulbs you'll have to make sure your shutter has an M setting, lots of the later Copal's only have X sync. While mentioning flash bulbs, you can use a Graflite 3 cell unit with 2 reflector heads on it (one in the normal position, one attached to the bottom instead of the screw on cap, it'll have to be the 5" one for the bayonet based bulbs), the way the flash is mounted on the camera, you will now have flash on both sides of the camera!

-Mike

Changeling1 · Oct 17, 2005

The Crown Graphics are nice cameras. Often, they can be purchased on eBay with their original case and numerous accessories. Besides making sure the bellows are light-tight you may very likely have to have the lens CLAed (cleaned, lube, and adjusted) by a professional that will add about $100 to your original purchase price. If the bellows need replacing, you're looking at another $130 plus depending on who does the work.

Since these are press cameras and afford very little in the way of view camera movements, it may not be the best choice for someone wanting to learn all about how to used a view camera- if you're interested in perspective correction etc. For landscape, portraiture, and street scenes, the Graphics are quite adequate. Of course, you'll have a large negative to process and print which will no doubt keep you busy for a little while and is at least half the fun of analog photography!

RichSBV · Oct 17, 2005

You're right Mike. I have a View II with the bracket mounted. It's a pain when I want to also use the accordian lens hood and it doesn't work well for electronic flash. Most electronics are horizontal by design. So unless I shoot vertically, the coverage is poor. Unless I use a diffuser and then the output is poor... Then there's the 8x10 ;-)

MattCarey · Oct 17, 2005

Changeling1 said:
The Crown Graphics are nice cameras. Often, they can be purchased on eBay with their original case and numerous accessories. Besides making sure the bellows are light-tight you may very likely have to have the lens CLAed (cleaned, lube, and adjusted) by a professional that will add about $100 to your original purchase price. If the bellows need replacing, you're looking at another $130 plus depending on who does the work.

I'll put a quick plug in here for Carol Flutot--she does a good CLA for $45. I have had 3 done by her and they were all great.

Another press camera to consider is the Burke and James (B&J). Aluminum body, a little more movements than the Crown (so I hear). They don't have the reputation of the Graflex, and so go for less cash.

At this point, these cameras are cheap enough it really shouldn't matter much, though! The glass is the real cost.

Matt

athanasius80 · Oct 17, 2005

I'm goint to put a third for B&J. The Burke and James press camera is technically called the Watson after B&J's president at the time. They have front tilt in both directions as opposed to Speed/Crown Graphics. Otherwise Burke and James is cheaper, but the quality is still good. Plus its kinda cool to have the "other" American press camera.

Dan Fromm · Oct 17, 2005

athanasius80 said:
I'm goint to put a third for B&J. The Burke and James press camera is technically called the Watson after B&J's president at the time. They have front tilt in both directions as opposed to Speed/Crown Graphics. Otherwise Burke and James is cheaper, but the quality is still good. Plus its kinda cool to have the "other" American press camera.

What do you mean, "other" American press camera? Have you never heard of Beseler, Busch, Meridian, Printex, and even, if you want 3x4, Kalart? There were a bunch of others and I'm sure I've omitted a couple.

Cheers,

Dan

MattCarey · Oct 17, 2005

athanasius80 said:
I'm goint to put a third for B&J. The Burke and James press camera is technically called the Watson after B&J's president at the time. They have front tilt in both directions as opposed to Speed/Crown Graphics. Otherwise Burke and James is cheaper, but the quality is still good. Plus its kinda cool to have the "other" American press camera.

Also, the B&J has more shift, if I recall, than the Crown. The B&J has a rotating back, which can be nice as well.

B&J loved the name, "watson". It ends up on a bunch of their stuff--like bulk film loaders. I have seen the Watson name on the 2x3 cameras, but not on the 4x5's.

Matt

MattCarey · Oct 17, 2005

RichSBV said:
And in case noone has noticed yet, I'm just a little biased towards Gralfex cameras ;-) Even my 8x10's were made by them...

I am a bit biased towards B&J. I have the orbit and the press. I am waiting for a good (i.e. cheap) 8x10 monorail to come along...

Matt

sattler123 · Oct 17, 2005

If you just want to try LF without the potential of losing a lot of money if you decide that this is not your cup of tea, then a Speed or a Crown are perfect. They can be had for about $200 incl. lens on eBay, a couple of film holders, a loupe and a darkcloth and you are ready to go (assuming you have a tripod of course). The bellows is actually not that big of an issue - they are of a rubbery material and typically are in pretty good shape. I must have bought and sold at least 50 Speeds and Crowns and very few had problems with the bellows - almost all of them needed a CLA for the shutter and yes, I would also recommend Carol Miller at Flutot's - she is great to deal with and does a terrific job for an unbeatable price of $45.
If you find that you do not enjoy LF, then you can sell the entire gear without losing any money (or very little). Should you stay with LF you will certainly buy a better camera later on - be it a wooden or metal one - with more movements.
Be careful, this stuff is very addictive. Not only will you buy a better 4x5 camera, but also a bigger one - I can almost guarantee it

BradS · Oct 17, 2005

david b said:
...snip...
Any advice is serious appreciated. And for those of you who are the experts, pointing out ebay auctions would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
david in santa fe

Well, I don't claim to be an expert but, here is a very interesting one on eBay. I can't quite make out the serial number on the body from the photos but, if the serial number on the lens is any indication, this one is relatively young. According to the Schneider data, the lens was manufactured in late 1964 or early 1965. I'm guessing this outfit might go for over $300 - if the seller hasn't set a ridiculous reserve. Good luck. I'll be watching the bidding closely.

John Cook · Oct 18, 2005

The best part of a Graphic camera is the ability to shoot hand-held. This opens up all sorts of (nearly) unique possibilities.

I agree with the others that your first stop should be the website, for basic information.

Be sure you know the difference among the many models produced. Lots of novices throw these model names around inacurately. A Speed or Crown Graphic is a folding press camera. A Graphlex is an over-sized Hasselblad which looks like a leather-covered cement foundation block.

The main problem in purchasing a Graphic camera is knowing the condition of the item you are buying. These have been around since before WWII and most have had the stuffing beaten out of them by armies, reporters and police departments working in all sorts of weather. I was offered one in 1967 which had been dropped out of a helicopter in Viet Nam.

I would be scared to death to buy one of these off ebay, sight unseen. If you can't do a personal buying trip to the big city, telephone someone trustworthy like Jim at Midwest and ask for him to contact you when a pristine camera comes his way. This may take a few months.

I found a Crown in 1990, new in the box with paperwork, from an estate sale. A wealthy amateur bought it and never used it. The retail market value at the time (according to Levine's in Boston) was $600 to $900.

jon koss · Oct 18, 2005

RichSBV said:
...On the subject of rotating backs, only the "Super" (Graphic or Speed Graphic) had them, and they'll cost you at least twice that of a Pacemaker...

I'm not accusing you of flexism or anything, but the original post did inquire about "looking to buy a Graflex or Crown Graphic or Speed Graphic." In this context it should be noted that a great number of the Graflex SLR's had a revolving back.

david b - Did you have in mind a huge SLR a la Ed Weston or were you thinking of a Jimmy Olson press camera?

j

PS: Pop quiz: what does "Graphlex" have in common with "fuschia?"

RichSBV · Oct 18, 2005

"flexism"???

But you're right. He did say "Graflex or Crown..." and I missed that. I would have mentioned the Graflex RB's had I noticed, but not in any great detail because I don't have the finances to also collects RB's... But do hope to own one someday...

It should also be mentioned though that any decent 4x5 RB will be well over $1000 and he seemed to be looking for something quite a bit less...

David H. Bebbington · Oct 19, 2005

John Cook said:
The main problem in purchasing a Graphic camera is knowing the condition of the item you are buying. These have been around since before WWII and most have had the stuffing beaten out of them by armies, reporters and police departments working in all sorts of weather. I was offered one in 1967 which had been dropped out of a helicopter in Viet Nam.

I would be scared to death to buy one of these off ebay, sight unseen. If you can't do a personal buying trip to the big city, telephone someone trustworthy like Jim at Midwest and ask for him to contact you when a pristine camera comes his way. This may take a few months.

In my experience, because Graphics sold in huge numbers in the US and elsewhere, and because today supply far exceeds demand, I have not found it difficult to buy Graphics in near-mint condition. The market seems to recognize that really beat-up Graphics have little value, these cameras tend to be sold for parts if at all. There are also lots of Graphics that were amateur owned and had an easy life - they are easy to identify, although Graphics will take a hell of beating and still work, they will soon acquire scuffs to the leather trim and rubbing on the paint of the viewing hood if abused. One good tip that worked for me - wait until the week after Christmas before you buy, it was at this time that I bought a near-mint top-rangefinder Crown Graphic without lens for $149. Particularly with the [shutterless] Crown Graphics, if they look right, they probably are right - there's very little to go wrong. The only problem worthy of mention that I've encountered is wear on the rear track (inside the body) which is caused by extensive use and carelessness in closing the camera without winding the focusing track fully back - both not a problem with an amateur's camera.

Advice on buying a Graflex / Crown Graphic

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