Advice on Agitation with basket in Large tanks.

[Christiaan Phleger]

Well, I'm going to try large tanks, Kodak Hard rubber ones, 3 1/2 gallon. I'll be putting reels of 35mm in the basket and dunking them in. Any advice as to agitation methods? I've done 4x5 in 2L tanks, the old 'lift and tilt' style, but does anyone have experience with doing say 15 rolls in a basket? Thanks!

 

[df cardwell]

I can do this, but I was taught how, have screwed up plenty, and have 40 years experience.

Sure you want to do this ?

Are you locked in to any developer ? That'll make a difference.

I'd like to use XTOL, replenished. It is pretty forgiving, which is good here. You WON'T hit ever perfection,
but you can easily have "very good" all the time, a little variation in XTOL won't ever jeopardize the images.
(there will be small density variation throughout the basket, but if you're attentive you'll always been in normal specs).

Even so, you're looking at shortish times ( TX=7 1/2 ) so you'll always have to be on your game. Go to the Kodak site and hunt down their suggestions (COMMANDMENTS) for basket processing.

Xtol is the best stuff for replenishment.

HC-110 in a tank is too fast, D-76 is inconsistent (which is why Kodak developed D-23 !).

D-23 with a replenisher would be a good third choice, because XTOL is such a good first choice, there is NO second choice.

Ilford DD (dip-and-dunk) would be good if you were a machine. This is different from Dip and Dunk.

The only problem you might have is that replenishment likes regular use. If you are looking at tanks to do lots of film every once in a while, then maybe one-shot is a better deal. In that case, XTOL still wins, say, 1+1.

good luck

BOWZART ?

PE ??

/d

 

[Phillip P. Dimor]

I've never done it but I would definitely imagine that the method of agitation would really affect things as the developer drains down and out of the reels from on top and over the ones underneath.. Maybe pick the basket up tilt in one corner, dunk, pick it up and choose another corner, etc. until you've done all four corners then tilt to the sides, left, right, front and back?
Or... go nitrogen burst and walk away for a while?

I do see the advantage though, being able to run large amounts like that. Lifting one of those 3ft tall stainless steel tanks full of chemistry is a pain (and heavy).. plus they fill so slowly that you have to dunk them in with the lights out anyhow.. sorry I couldn't help you more.

 

[Bob Carnie]

This is how I processed film for years,

After I built my printing business, I needed to hire people to do this and ran into problems. This job is extremely boring and unless you do it yourself I would not process the film this way.
We moved to Jobo's to avoid bad attitude in the darkroom but I know of many workers processing their film in deep tank like this.

I think the most important factor in processing film this way is a firm commitment to repeatability and concentration.
Agitation in the first 15-20 seconds is very critical , without this you will open a huge can of woopass for yourself.
Making sure you agitate in the time paramaters is important and I always started my lift and move to the next position from that of the one I left off at.
front, side back side, front side back side, over and over until the full time has expired with time breaks in between. Also on the down position I would bang the bottom of the rack to expel air bubbles that would adhere to the reels and potentially the film.
Consistant agitation, and movement through the process is IMO the most critical factor. Concentrate on each step and you should do very well.
When I first started I purchased reels that had a solid core and ran into flow marks on the fifth or sixth frame from the core and had to switch to open cores and the problem went away.
Make sure you are replenishing properly, and finishing off the run with a good distilled water rinse with just the right amount of wetting agent.
Easy method of working and great for large volumes of film

Well, I'm going to try large tanks, Kodak Hard rubber ones, 3 1/2 gallon. I'll be putting reels of 35mm in the basket and dunking them in. Any advice as to agitation methods? I've done 4x5 in 2L tanks, the old 'lift and tilt' style, but does anyone have experience with doing say 15 rolls in a basket? Thanks!

 

[df cardwell]

Amen, Bob.

I never figured out how the OLD GUYS could do this with a cigar in their mouths,
but figured the ashes were good for the fine grain.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The cigar fogged film!

Agitation must be very rapid for the first 15 seconds or so. You lift out of the solution and tilt one way and rap hard on the edge of the tank then immerse and then dunk with up and down motions when it reaches the bottom. Then, left again and repeat tilting the opposite way. Then repeat this on a regular cycle as recommended by the manufacturer for the process.

However, nitrogen burst is far better. Even so, you need the first 15" cycle as I note here. That is to dislodge bubbles and prevent channeling of solution which could cause streaks.

I've used this on 4x5 up to 16x20 sheets.

PE

 

[Larry Bullis]

....Sure you want to do this ?
....
The only problem you might have is that replenishment likes regular use. If you are looking at tanks to do lots of film every once in a while, then maybe one-shot is a better deal. In that case, XTOL still wins, say, 1+1.

good luck

BOWZART ?

PE ??

/d

I haven't done much of this in a very long time now, but used to do customers E4 and C-22 (well, that is SUCH ancient history; those were the precursors to E6 and C-41 - that tells you how long it has been).

If you are proficient with "ASA standard agitation" which if it still exists would have to be "ISO standard agitation" now, use it. Can I recall? Seems to me you plunge the basket into the tank, move it up and down for a period of time (can't remember, but I'm guessing something like 15 seconds), being sure to bang the basket to dislodge bubbles, and then at (I will say) one minute intervals, lift the basket out, tilt either forward or back, then re-immerse, lift out and tilt the other way, put it back with a bang. Lift out 15 seconds before plunging it into the stop. If this isn't exactly what it was, it ought to be close enough.

Yes, you can get good and consistent results. When I was doing it my technique had to stand up not only to a critical employer hovering over a hot densitometer, but customer scrutiny. Since the customers were dependent upon ME for their livelihoods, I must have been doing ok. It is most important, of course, to do it the same way every time. You can vary from someone else's norm, but when you get something that works right, stick with it.

I would caution against over agitation. I'd be very reluctant to use 30 second cycles, and err on the gentle side rather than the violent. You can get edge build up and unevenness from turbulence behind the wires.

Don Normark (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/chavezravine/album.html) has been processing Tri X roll film, both 35mm and 120, in a tank line using Beutler's for I'd guess 60 years now. He uses the developer one shot. Also, he mixes the stock solution with no reducing agent, adds that when he's ready to go. I wouldn't go to that extreme, probably, since I know the secret about wine boxes. Don's technique is flawless. Let's see. How many four drawer filing cabinets full of negatives does he have?

DF's caution about replenished lines requiring fairly constant use is to be taken very seriously.

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

Wow! Thanks for all the advice. Yes, I'm sure I want to do this, 20+ years in the dark(room) so another challenge! I'll be doing Xtol replenished, and I'm familiar with it and its processing times and replenishment, so I'm ahead there. I've done 4x5 in hangers, but never 35mm in baskets so all the advice as to the tilt back and side really helps, that's the kind of info I needed. I have a lot to do over the next few months so its not just a one time event, I'm going to do it over several days the next month so I'll be able to fine tune it.

 

[Larry Bullis]

If you want to try it first before committing 20 real rolls, I'd suggest exposing a whole roll to a uniform field at mid gray, embedding it in the middle of the matrix of reels, all of them in the basket though empty. Run it, and look at the film for irregularities.

The initial 15 seconds ought to be fairly vigorous, as I recall.

Best of luck with it.

L

 

[Phillip P. Dimor]

I've been wanting a sensory deprivation tank for a long time but i'm starting to think that doing deep tanks in total darkness might substitute..

 

[Larry Bullis]

Close enough. Better yet, a hot enlarging room in a custom color lab. Especially in northern latitudes. I'd go to work before the sun came up, work in the dark until after the sun went down, then go home. I guess that lasted about 4 months/year, although it seems like it was much longer.

Now, we don't have enlargers any more in most color labs. We can trade SAD for carpel tunnel.

L.