Advice on 4x5 please

I would like to move into 4x5 and after massive confusion decided on Ebony. Natural procrastination subsequently led to the discovery of Wisner. I have had two bits of advice. One, Ebony is the best camera in the world. 2. Wisner is superior - there are no joints on Ebony, it is held together by metal. My desire is for Wisner 4x5 Expedition which I gather is no longer available due to company difficulties. Could anyone suggest a source? Also could anyone offer information on the difference between the Expedition and the Traditional Wisner? I understand the Expedition is made of cherry and is stunning with back rise and fall. Other than that I gather they are similar. Another observation which seemed sensible but not helpful in my dilemma was: "there are no bad 4x5s"
Any guidance or suggestions would be appreciated

Micawber said:

"there are no bad 4x5s"

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Just like there are no bad children. A 4X5 might steal your money, drink your booze, and burn down your house, but it is not bad, just disaffected.

Sotry, just a bit jaded here, but certainly the ones you are looking at won't do anything more than take your money. They are both excellent cameras. I find it hard to imagine spending the kind of money it takes to buy an Ebony, but that doesn't mean that they aren't awesome cameras.

A well trusted member here is selling a (there was a url link here which no longer exists) with some nice extras. I previously owned 2 Zone Vi's, one walnut, and one Mahogany like in the sale here. I traded up to a Wisner last year. It's a pretty camera, but honestly, it's no better than the Z VI's were. In fact some pieces like bellows frames are sturdier in the Z VI. Do yourself a favor and buy the $650 camera for the first go around. That should leave about $4000 for lenses which really do all the work. The camera is just a light tight box. And I just happen to have (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The lens Pusher Man speaks. Galli is right though. Ebonys are nice but I would rather spend the big bucks on lenses. Of course I don't have the money for an ebony and probably never will so my advice is pointless. I just wanted to point out the fact that Galli's items are addictive and well priced.

I'd start a little "downscale" until you work out what it is that you really need in a camera. Having said that, I have an Ebony SV45U which I think is very close to the ultimate 4x5 field camera (not I said close - every camera is by design a compromise of certain features). Only be getting out there and shooting will you work out what you need, what you don't and how much money you'd like to throw at the problem. I'd recommend a Tachihara 4X5 which can be had new for around $650 I think. They are well made and can handle a pretty good range of lenses on the non-interchangeable bellows - 75-300mm I think. Speak to Jim at Midwest and he will likely see you right. If you decide after a while that you need a camera with other features, you can very easily turn one of these around for probably as little as $100-$150 loss - if you start off with a $4000 camera, you'll be looking at a $500+ loss to get out of it (depending on what it is) just to sort out a mistake. I honestly don't think you will find the first camera, whatever it is, to be perfect your needs, so I would strongly recommend getting out there with a cheap camera and finding out what you need.

A $10,000.00 camera won't make a better image than a $150.00 Burke and James. If the camera person does his part. Prestiege and bragging rights rights are all that that extra $9,850.00 dollars will buy for you!
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"by the way, is that a Hasselblad?"

Charles Webb said:

A $10,000.00 camera won't make a better image than a $150.00 Burke and James. If the camera person does his part. Prestiege and bragging rights rights are all that that extra $9,850.00 dollars will buy for you!
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"by the way, is that a Hasselblad?"

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But where will the used equipment at discounted prices come from if you keep dissuading all of those that aspire to greatness?

Micawber said:

There are no bad 4x5s"

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From a technical point of view, a 4x5" is bad if it leaks light, wobbles or has a back with a ground glass screen that doesn't match up with the film plane. From a practical point of view, the worst kind of 4x5" is the one which is so heavy you hate to carry it and therefore seldom if ever go out with it. Cameras in cupboards take really terrible pictures.
Beyond that, it's a question of personal taste and how much you want to spend. I have used many types of 4x5", my choice for field work is a Crown Graphic, just because it's light, can be set up very quickly to catch a fleeting light effect and can be put away equally fast in the very rare event that it comes on to rain . Other people of course have their favorites!

i would caution you against taking blind advice here. you have not stated your intended use for the camera, nor have any of the advice givers stated what they value in a camera.

case in point, a lot of people love ebony cameras. i have owned two of them and in my estimation, found them both to fall short of the praise some give them. ebony fans, please, save your scathing emails, this is simply what i found. i simply did not care for them. i much prefer metal cameras... they are more rigid, more solid, more precise... to me, they just feel better, and as a result, i work better with them.

i do a lot of backpacking and hiking, so if you do as well, my advice might be of use to you. if you shoot close to your car or in a studio, ignore what i say completely. without getting into too many details, i started with a technika IV, sold it, and then went through several cameras trying to replace it... 2 ebonys, a technikardan 45S, a canham, and an arca swiss. the setup that i finally settled on was a MT2000 for long, multi-day treks into the wilderness and an arca swiss f-line metric for everything else. it's been my experience that these cameras represent the finest examples of what they are... i feel that the MT2000 is the finest folding camera ever made and the arca swiss is the finest all purpose camera ever made. but as i mentioned earlier, i don't like wooden cameras and lots of people do. so, ymmv.

i wouldn't stess too much over this decision... your first camera purchase will likely not be your last, and there's a very healthy used market if you want to get out of a bad relationship.

good luck,
scott

Scott-Tx said:

i wouldn't stess too much over this decision... your first camera purchase will likely not be your last, and there's a very healthy used market if you want to get out of a bad relationship.

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Amplifying what Scott says just a bit: Chances are that if you buy a used camera, you'll be able to sell it and get back most (if not all) of your money. The large format camera market is fairly stable, and camera prices don't change much.

I'm all for buying used LF equipment. If the bellows don't leak, if the camera can be locked down solidly, and if the back is in the right place, there really isn't much that can go wrong with one. Of my six (gulp!) LF cameras, only one was purchased new. I've not been disappointed yet.

Best of luck.
Dave

A vote for 4x5 wooden field cameras!

I got mine (a Wista) through Zone VI several decades ago. It's survived being used in all weather conditions in all seasons on BC's north coast, a fairly harsh environment. It even gave me zero problems on a 6 month seakayaking trip.

Murray

SNIP

Scott-Tx said:

i i wouldn't stess too much over this decision... your first camera purchase will likely not be your last, and there's a very healthy used market if you want to get out of a bad relationship.

good luck,
scott

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bingo!

I am sure one of two Gandolfi owners would dispute the "Ebony is best" idea too...

Anyway, Scott makes several good points. It ultimately depends what you want the camera for.

Also, are you sure LF is for you? Have you tried it much? Better to get a used camera and a couple of lenses and then, worst case, you can always sell them for pretty much what they cost you. That will also allow you to check that a field camera is suitable for your needs, or if you might be better off with a monorail - or if you need/want both!

Cheers, Bob.

Bob F. said:

I am sure one of two Gandolfi owners would dispute the "Ebony is best" idea too...

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Hup!

I won't even say that Gandolfi is the best, but I like mine better than I liked the Ebony I've handled...

All right: I haven't found a better camera than the Gandolfi. Yet. I've used several other cameras, including two very different Linhofs. I still have my 4x5" Linhof Color, nad will probably keep it for indoors and similar work. But I'm going to order a 4x5" back for my 5x7" Gandolfi!

It is true that Expensive or Branded Camera not necessary take good pictures but certainly it makes you feel good owning it. If you don't feel good, how could you possibly shoot good. If you have the means, buy whatever Expensive or Branded camera you like. If not, start out with something within your reach, explore it and save up to buy your dream camera.

A thousand thanks

Thank you to all who offerd advice. It helps confirm what I thought - there's alot of hype out there - and your observations helps to focus on the more basic issues. Sound advice and a great help in making that initial step into LF.