Advice needed for 1st Medium Format

hpulley · Oct 16, 2010

CGW said:
With the C$ close to par, it might be time to make a bulk buy from B&H. Know Pond's but wonder how much film goes thru the lab these days? Processing was what kept them afloat but now?

Wrong thread but: I was shopping at B&H and locally too, I want some 1600 Fujifilm but they're saying its discontinued, did I miss that? Did Fuji really discontinue Neopan 1600? I thought it was just being renamed Super Presto. Anyways, I don't see either Neopan 1600 or Press 1600 at B&W so I'll have to look elsewhere or stick to 400...

Where do Ponds get their money from these days? Digital prints... It is still more cost effective to have them print for you than doing it at home. They don't make much on developing of film but if you want poster sized prints, canvas, etc. then they do a great job. The big money was always in the prints.

snederhiser · Oct 16, 2010

Hello;
Buy what ever appeals to you! Personally I like a SLR with a viewfinder and a prism. Currently own Kiev 60's and Mamiya 645's. I love both but you need to be aware of the problems with used camera's. Light seals and interior flocking seem to go on a camera that has age on it. Then how about a CLA? I would buy from a dealer that will stand behind the equipment. Maybe he does not work on the stuff but you have the option of returning the camera or lens. I you are handy then this is not a problem! Reflocking and seals not that difficult. With some tools and manuals performing a CLA can be done! Steven.

nsurit · Oct 16, 2010

I've recently picked up a Super Richoflex TLR and am please with the results produced. Worth a look as you are looking. Make sure the shutter release is working. Many sellers are clueless as to how to cock and release the shutter. Push the release one way to cock it and the opposit direction to release it. Pretty neat little cameras with decent optics. Bill Barber

CGW · Oct 16, 2010

hpulley said:
Wrong thread but: I was shopping at B&H and locally too, I want some 1600 Fujifilm but they're saying its discontinued, did I miss that? Did Fuji really discontinue Neopan 1600? I thought it was just being renamed Super Presto. Anyways, I don't see either Neopan 1600 or Press 1600 at B&W so I'll have to look elsewhere or stick to 400...

Where do Ponds get their money from these days? Digital prints... It is still more cost effective to have them print for you than doing it at home. They don't make much on developing of film but if you want poster sized prints, canvas, etc. then they do a great job. The big money was always in the prints.

They made serious $ of 35mm dev/print longer than most, thanks to no Costco or Walmart in the area until recently. Check Silvano's in TO for film--a bit cheaper than other Canadian retailers.

hpulley · Oct 16, 2010

CGW said:
They made serious $ of 35mm dev/print longer than most, thanks to no Costco or Walmart in the area until recently. Check Silvano's in TO for film--a bit cheaper than other Canadian retailers.

They must still make some money off it though they only run C41 three times a week and the E6 gets sent out while I remember when I could get around one hour service there on E6 and C41... drop it off in the morning and pick up after lunch, was a very busy place then! Not so busy now. Still many of the same people work there, it's amazing about that keeping the same people. I just wish their hours were more convenient for me, I can't really get there much during the week, just on the weekends.

Silvano's doesn't have any Fujifilm over 400 ISO that I can see :-( My foray into the dark side has made me like high ISO for action shooting...

CGW · Oct 16, 2010

hpulley said:
They must still make some money off it though they only run C41 three times a week and the E6 gets sent out while I remember when I could get around one hour service there on E6 and C41... drop it off in the morning and pick up after lunch, was a very busy place then! Not so busy now. Still many of the same people work there, it's amazing about that keeping the same people. I just wish their hours were more convenient for me, I can't really get there much during the week, just on the weekends.

Silvano's doesn't have any Fujifilm over 400 ISO that I can see :-( My foray into the dark side has made me like high ISO for action shooting...

Surprised they're doing that many runs. Silvano's was doing only one per week in late August when I last took in a load of 120. E6 service is now tough to find almost anywhere, though there are a few guys setting up to do "garage" E6 who might pick up the slack. Toronto Image Works still offers same day C41/E6/b&w processing, so that's where I'm taking my next batch. Check Downtown Camera for fast Fuji:

http://www.downtowncamera.com/index...id=307&page=shop.browse&limit=20&limitstart=0

Henry's isn't stocking anything faster than ISO400 Fujipan.

Venchka · Oct 16, 2010

The Texas Gulf coast covers a lot of real estate. Where are you? There are several of us in Houston with multiple MF systems. We get together from time to time & you could get some good touchy-feely time with the hardware.
You missed Wes Clavey's Mamiya TLR listings here and at the Rangefinder Forum or they were beyond your budget. Watch craigslist. A friend outside Dallas scored Pentax 6x7 & 645 cheap earlier this year. The stuff is out there. Beat the bushes.
Don't fret over your first purchase. It will be right and you will smile. It won't be perfect and you will sell it and try something else. Any MF camera is better than no MF camera.
Rapid Omegas with the killer 90mm Hexanon lens are selling for $100. You could do a lot worse.

Chazzy · Oct 16, 2010

It's hard to imagine a better value for the money than a Koni-Omega or Rapid Omega. But it's a rangefinder camera. Do you like rangefinders, or do you prefer SLRs?

piu58 · Oct 17, 2010

I also recommend a TLR. I had several in use, Seagull, Yashica, and - of course - Rollei. I finished with a Rolleiflex 3,5F, but that may outside of your monetairy reach. But the Rolleicords a quite good camers, especially the model series V. The most important difference is the taking lens, a tessar (instead of a Planar). If you use f/8 or smaller, image quality is outstanding. Rollei supresses very good the scattering light inside the camera.
Rollei quality is far beyond Seagull, Yashica or Flexaret. It is a joy to use. But you can take decent photographs with the other cameras too. Especial the lenses of Seagull and Yashica I found to be quite good, if you chose a 4 lens (Tessar) type.

Galah · Oct 18, 2010

jp498 said:
Unlike what some have alluded to, an old Yashica TLR can be a very reliable simple camera. It's also cheap after purchase because I'm not tempted to buy all sorts of system accessories and lenses like you might with an interchangable lens camera. If it needs work, you send it off to get fixed up once (deans or hama), and you'll probably be good for another 20 years. It's probably more reliable than the communist cameras, cheaper to repair than rolleiflexes. A TLR is not as full featured as a "system" like mamiya/bronica/hasselblad/pentax offers, but I'm doing MF now, and it's fun and easy and high quality. I have great respect for the "system" options, but my money is going towards other things right now.

I'm with jp498

I was in the same situation as the OP, wanting to have a go at MF, but being put off by the asking price of some of the gear and the tales of woe told by some of the players, concerning their equipment breakdowns.

I considered (and looked over -in my hands) Pentax, Mamiya, Bronica and Pentacon.

(I ruled out Rolleiflex and Hasselblad on price alone)

The trouble was, a lot of the gear is decades old and much of it relies -at least to some extent- on electronics of one kind or another to do its thing, and it's often the electronics that gives way one way or another

Of course some of the mechanical bits (gear trains etc) have also proved to be quite capable of having their own problems, as well, not to mention element separation in glasses and prisms.

Well, I was set to pass on MF altogether, when I came across the Yashica TLRs.

Admittedly, they are a relatively low form of MF life, but -by the same token- they seem to be relatively free from many of the problems besetting the more advanced/sophisticated/alpha type MF beasties: and, everybody (who has owned one) seems to literally love them.

Since they are also relatively quite cheap, I too have invested in a "lowly" but effective Yashica TLR 635, just to have a go at MF.

I have -so far- only put two films through it, all shots hand-held. Waiting for the second film to come back from processing, but I have to say -so far- it has been a pleasant (and relatively inexpensive) experience (even if film, processing and printing are several times dearer than for 35mm).

Of course, I only have a single, 80mm lens and a close-up #2 diopter, so nothing outlandish: but it has been (and continues to be) a relatively cheap entry to MF 101.

So far, I have messed up only one frame (due to double exposure, by not winding on), but I'm learning.

Some of the shots (even those with the close-up diopter) have been excellent (IMO), and I'm finding out if MF is for me or not.

So far, so good.

Q.G. · Oct 18, 2010

Mamiya 645 or Bronica ERTSi.
Both cheap. Offer enough extra lenses and accessories to make sense.

TLRs are very limiting things, so maybe get one when you already have all you need. As an extra.

Brian Legge · Oct 18, 2010

I picked up a Rolleicord for $40 earlier in the year. It was my first MF experience and hooked me immediately - both on the format and on TLRs. I've since picked up an Autocord - budget priced as it needed some repair, but I handled that myself. Both have been great cameras. You'll can probably find a film tested one around for less than $100. Even if you don't pick one up now, they are worth experimenting with depending on what you photograph. I love them for street photography and for general compactness.

From there, I picked up an SQ-A and then a 50mm lens for it. I probably put about $400 into the camera by the end. Before I picked up the 50mm, I found myself almost always taking out a TLR instead as I prefer smaller, quieter cameras.

Moving towards the smaller, quieter side, I picked up a Zenobia. It is a small, 6x4.5 folding camera. I spent $70 on one. I only went that high because I bought it in person and could verify the condition of the camera (and the bellows in particular). This is the first scale focus camera I've really spent much time with. I love it. Wonderful sharp lens, tiny package. I can throw it and a rangefinder (or folding 35mm camera ) in small bag and have a compact little kit.

All of these cameras have different pros and cons. The Zenobia is great but the red window winding is problematic on bright days, particularly when using color film. I also avoid situations where the ability to rapidly focus is critical with. My TLRs solve those problems. They are great for street photography as people don't really react to them in the same was as other cameras. The fixed lens is a limit though. The SQ-A addresses the fixed lens at the cost of a much heavier, louder system. It also gives you through the lens composition which is nice when focusing close.

Over all, each of these options has trade offs. The best all around option is probably the Mamiya 7II but that costs about 5x what I've spent in total for just a body. Totally out of my price range. The TLR is still a unique option simply because you aren't pointing something camera-looking at someone, nor are you looking at them yourself. That is one of the reasons I still recommend at least trying a TLR to everyone; it can feel very different from most other camera experiences.

Nijo · Oct 18, 2010

I have an old Agfa Isolette with a Solinar lens that is just a blast to shoot with. Stick it in a large pocket with an extra roll of b&w or C-41 and go. I leave the meter at home usually but I am planning on getting the Voigtlander VC II meter to mount on top. I think for less than $200ish you could be all set with camea and meter. Rollei has workable c41 processing kits and b&w is a snap to process at home.

Samuel West Hiser · Oct 18, 2010

Many good suggestions above. The 6x6 TLRs: Yashica MAT 124 G or Mamiya C3 or C330 -- were my very first thoughts.

The Holga (a 6x6 plastic rangefinder <$35) is extremely cheap and a lot of fun, but may not be what you had in mind because it has only exposure setting (somewhere around f8 and 1/60 sec).

The answer for you hinges entirely on what kind of images you want to make and on their final form & size requirements.

I wouldn't be deterred by old classics necessarily because you're going to benefit from developing a relationship with a good medium format support tech (for CLA) for any and all medium format cameras you should choose ... at any point. (Blue Moon Camera can fix almost anything people might come up with here.)

You might like shooting MF and move into more than one camera (especially if you start developing your own negatives) because there are so many approaches to shooting.

The 6x6 TLRs are a great start (and, accordingly, there are benefits and a strong case to be made for saving up for a Rolleiflex).

Whenever I'm curious about the kinds of results possible from a particular platform, I simply search flickr. (The film people there have way more fun!)

Camera choice is part of expressing your vision, but only part part of it. Don't fear a mistake here because you will learn a lot from whatever you do. Moreso from a mistake.

one90guy · Oct 21, 2010

MF search

First off I have to say what a great bunch of people here. I have tried other forums and even a club but always felt odd man out. I have been reading all of your posts, and reading up on your suggestions of cameras. Now I use everything from a Nikon F4s to a Argus C-3. Also a couple to Yashica rangefinders. I have never found a camera I did not like One thing thats been on my mind is developing my own film, where I live there is only C-41, Wallyworld and big chain drug stories. Venchka I live in Baytown, so I guess it really makes me by the bay. So I have decided to get set up for devloping first, but keeping a eye out for a camera deal. Ric I try to keep the Boss/Book Keeper happy. As for my budget, tank, chemicals,etc is going to knock a big hole in it. I will have to start cooking more meals and doing housework I do feel I have learned a lot from this, so thanks so much.
David

Moopheus · Oct 22, 2010

Chazzy said:
It's hard to imagine a better value for the money than a Koni-Omega or Rapid Omega. But it's a rangefinder camera.

And if you buy one off ebay you'll probably have to budget for a CLA. But even with that it may still end up being cheaper than just about anything else that offers interchangeable backs and lenses.

one90guy · Oct 23, 2010

Watching ebay

When I started looking at MF I was totaly in the dark. I started with 35mm in 1968 and when I came home from Nam I only took family and friends pictures. In the last 3 years it has become an addiction. I need to sell off some of my 35mm's, and I am waiting on money from a sale last week. Decided to slow down a bit, and make sure that I buy something that can still be repaired. There are so many brands and styles. I will definity have a lot more questions.confused:

Katie · Oct 23, 2010

Hi David. I'm not too far from you - in La Grange, Texas.

Hope you find something - don't forget CL, as that's where I found my Hasselblad (Houston).

LyleB · Oct 23, 2010

mablo said:
Well.. I've gone through the folder phase and now have in my possession a couple of old el-cheapo TLR cameras. All in all I think I've bought four old TLR's. All had shutter problems, one had hazy lenses and a rotten mirror and at least two had light leaks. I've burned a lot of money and frustration to get two working TLR cameras. If I'm honest, only one of them is really good.

So I think I'm qualified to the next MF level.

Would have been much better off just sending your first TLR purchase in to be professionally serviced. My cost was $56 and the camera came back working beautifully. (Maybe I misunderstood your post and you did have them serviced, if so sorry I misconstrued. I still think this issue should be elaborated on for others getting into these old cameras.)

Jumping from camera to camera, hoping to get a good one is a big gamble as you point out, and who's to say if you do find a good one, that it won't develop a problem in six months or a year.

Most of these are decades old, haven't been used in many years. They deserve some service and TLC if you want to use them. Plus, I take comfort and pride that I've resurrected a fine old instrument that won't end up in the garbage heap in the near future. Added comfort: good repair techs are getting scarcer as time goes by. My philosophy, service these cameras now, while we still can!!!!

Just my ranting... your opinion may differ.

michaelbsc · Oct 23, 2010

Philosophy as much as an answer to the OP

one90guy said:
I have been wanting a medium format camera for sometime...

As so may others have pointed out, you really need to start with the end in mind. What do you want to *DO* rather than what format do you want.

A Hasselblad and a Brownie Hawk-eye are both medium format cameras. And in the hands of someone with the vision to see what they want, both of these will produce stunning images. The photographer takes the picture, not the camera.

One of these costs a lot, and the other you can probably find a lot of three on the auction site for less than the price of a dark-slide for the first.

So, start with the objective in mind. Do you want to make professional studio pictures? Do you want to make family snapshots. Do you want to fool around with the gizmos? All of these are legitimate goals, but the answers make a lot of difference in the camera body choice. Form follows function.

one90guy said:
... I want just a decent camera, light meter preferred but I use a Argus C-3 and so I do not think it would be a big problem..... My main concern is price and getting a useable camera.

If you just want to stick your toes in the water to see if you like it, then I also think the Yashica TLRs are hard to beat. While the 124G is probably the best of the series, they've caught people's fancy and in my mind are overpriced now days. I have both a Yashicamat and a Yashicamat-124G. The plain old Yashicamat only takes 120 (not 220 which is about vanished anyway) and is a workhorse. I suspect the others which people have mentioned (A, D, etc.) work just as well, but I have no experience with them. No meter on the plain old Yashicamat, however. But if you get by with an Argus you can get by with no meter. I have half a dozen cameras with meters, and the only in-camera meter I ever use is the one on the Contax RTS when I'm trying to shoot in a hurry.

fmajor · Oct 24, 2010

I started on the MF path much as the Folks here have suggested - via a TLR. I'm like Minolta and found they made a very reputable TLR called the "Autocord". A kind man sold me one for ~$36 and i gave it a new cover (it needed one badly and i bought some GripTac from cameraleather.com) for $26 - so less than $100 invested. I've found it to be an awesome little camera and the 6x6cm negs are great.

I then realized i wanted to concentrate on landscape and portraiture, but wanted a very flexible/modular system to accomplish this. A friend of mine has a Mamiya RB67 Pro-S and I immediately "bonded" with it. It's taken me over a year to put together my kit, but i've researched, priced, researched some more and put it together component by component. I was able to buy a RB67 Pro-S body (w/WLF), Pro-S 120 back, Sekor C 180mm for just under $300 - all in superb condition. It's been a slightly more time intensive way to do it, but i'm well assured my purchases were actually in excellent condition and what i really wanted. Last week i bought probably my last lens (yea right!!!) a superb Sekor C 65mm for a slighly high $200, but it also came with some very nice filters.

If it's really something you're wanting to move into, enjoy the time spent to assemble what you believe will help you do what you're wanting to do. You'll be more confident in your purchases AND when using your gear you won't be concerned that your gear will not perform. Then you can concentrate strictly on your photography!

one90guy · Oct 25, 2010

Hi Katie
The wife and I were out in La Grange back in April. Love the bluebonnets, shot 3 36 rolls of 35mm. I had not thought about CL wilol start watching there to.
Thanks
David

Jose LS Gil · Oct 25, 2010

David,

If you are looking to start shooting MF, you might try antique shops, pawn shops, in addition to CL and ebay. As for which camera is really up to your budget and if you find a great deal. I have seen some TLR cameras go for way too much money and some for less than $30. I have purchased at least 3 TLR cameras in that price range (less than $30). The Rolleis are currently selling for a lot of money and some specific models going for over $1K. Most of those are going to collectors. I would stear clear of a Rollei as even a CLA is expensive. I have one that I inherited from my father and it was the camera I learned with in high school. I was quoted a CLA at close to $175.

One camera that I purchased on ebay for less than $30 and I have been very pleased with the quality of the images, is the Seagul TLR. I don't know much about the camera or lenses, but I have to admit the images are sharp and with good tonal quality. One drawback, is finding filters for B&W. As with many of the older cameras, filter sizes vary from what is popular so an adaptor ring, usually series V is needed.

Good luck with your MF adventure!

one90guy · Oct 28, 2010

Hi michaelbsc
You asked some very good questions, and I had think about what I was wanting to do. I am not looking to take professional pictures. I have made some really good photos, at least to me, with 35mm. I have never enlarged more than 8x10, and I would imagine a pro could show me where there is need of improvement. I like landscapes and sunsets, and have rediscovered b/w photos of old homes and broken down buildings. So fooling around with gizmos, and try to see what I can do with them. Thats what got me to using the Argus, and love those double exposures when the motor drive slips
Thanks
David

one90guy · Oct 28, 2010

Hi Jose
After some really good advice here I am leaning toward 1 of the Yashica TLR's. I have several of the Yashica rangefinders and for the price they are great cameras. The last 1 I bought on the bay cost me $0.99 plus 7.00 postage. Not likely to find a deal like that again. I had not thought about filters, I have made some for my Argus using old bottlecaps. Not very pretty but they work Pawn shops and antique stores around here just do not have older cameras, its been years since the pawn shops would accept film cameras.
Thanks
David

Advice needed for 1st Medium Format

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