Is there any chance ADOX will re-enter the sheet film market? I have a few boxes of 4X5, but I'm curious whether the company is less and less about film and more and more about chemistry? Does anyone have a sense for this?
ADOX Sheet Film Production?
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No idea, didn't know they were not making this for some time.
With chemistry they aren't dependant on third parties and the margin in chemistry is much higher than on film.
I just read that Agfa in Mortsel is shrinking. ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/11/14/530-jobs-bedreigd-bij-agfa-in-mortsel/ ) I think Adox is depending on quite heavily on Agfa.
CMS 20 was some Agfa microfilm. HR-50 must be derived from Aviphot as well. Although CHS100 is coated by Adox they depend on "a third party" for the emulsion. No idea if that is Agfa or another company.
So I completely understand that they spread risks and make products they can do themselves and they have high margin in. Products like the new D-76 variants require much less R&D than a new film that they can make all by themselves.
With chemistry they aren't dependant on third parties and the margin in chemistry is much higher than on film.
I just read that Agfa in Mortsel is shrinking. ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/11/14/530-jobs-bedreigd-bij-agfa-in-mortsel/ ) I think Adox is depending on quite heavily on Agfa.
CMS 20 was some Agfa microfilm. HR-50 must be derived from Aviphot as well. Although CHS100 is coated by Adox they depend on "a third party" for the emulsion. No idea if that is Agfa or another company.
So I completely understand that they spread risks and make products they can do themselves and they have high margin in. Products like the new D-76 variants require much less R&D than a new film that they can make all by themselves.
I've asked several times about this, and Adox has pretty much skirted the question, so who knows.
Andrew O'Neill
Moderator
I'm hoping to see HR-50 in at least 4x5.
Ernst-Jan:
Fair enough. Start-ups like Ferrania and Adox likely never saw themselves as seriously involved in everyday production, distribution and delivery of film. ILFORD, FUJI, FOMA and KODAK seem more reliable or at least they seem to run more regular cycles and out-of-stock issues seem rare. A real follow up question is how much room exists in the film market for a series of slight variant films clustered around 100 and 400 ISO and whether product cycles or financial cycles determine production at Adox and Ferrania. Throw Shanghai GP3 in that bucket as well. FWIW, irregularity tends to narrow the utility of a film's users to those who like a fling here and there. Love to have more sheet films!!! But I'd be content as well if ILFORD would offer more of their films in sheet formats, too.
Fair enough. Start-ups like Ferrania and Adox likely never saw themselves as seriously involved in everyday production, distribution and delivery of film. ILFORD, FUJI, FOMA and KODAK seem more reliable or at least they seem to run more regular cycles and out-of-stock issues seem rare. A real follow up question is how much room exists in the film market for a series of slight variant films clustered around 100 and 400 ISO and whether product cycles or financial cycles determine production at Adox and Ferrania. Throw Shanghai GP3 in that bucket as well. FWIW, irregularity tends to narrow the utility of a film's users to those who like a fling here and there. Love to have more sheet films!!! But I'd be content as well if ILFORD would offer more of their films in sheet formats, too.
What I've read (on Photrio) is that Harman doesn't want to compete with themselves in the limited sheet film market.
They already offer FP4+, HP5+, Delta 100, and Ortho Plus in 4x5; adding the faster Delta films and Pan F, never mind offering Kentmere emulsions in sheet sizes, would dilute the already-sparse sheet film market. And there's already little enough market there that I personally doubt it would make sense to cut the Delta 3200 or Pan F in sheet sizes, so there's only one emulsion they could reasonably add to that line -- but grain hardly matters in 4x5 and larger, so there's nothing to be gained by spending the research money to make Delta 400 behave the same on the different base.
Don: Sure. You make a good case. I'd note that the survey that recent Ilford sent out had a series(?) of questions you could read as concern for NOT offering Kentmere emulsions more widely as folks switch to FOMA. Of course it doesn't mention sheet film in this regard, but I'm one following the suggestion to give FOMA 200 a try in 4X5 and 5X7. I've read that some have switched completely. From the outside at the moment, accounts I've read of Foma's reciprocity characteristics aren't a thrill.... but Ill have to see how it works in real life.
Ortho Plus isn't offered in 5X7 so I wrote Ilford asking about other emulsions and their response was that from time to time they do offer Ortho through the Annual ULF. Clearly not in 2024 which I checked. But I'm new to 5X7 so I can't recount it.
One thing I'd love to see is just how big or small or "healthy and steady" demand for sheet film actually is. Size of the market? No idea. And is sheet film participating in any of the Analog Film Revival.... or not? Im very encouraged by Intrepid's Kickstarter for a new shutter..... but it would otherwise it'd be sweet to understand the actual relative scarcity of shutters, lenses etc. and the direction of the market. Ilford's making of Ortho Plus in 4X5 is a decent sign.... but how much was a gamble, a stab and a try-and-see and to what extent has the response met / exceeded or even failed to meet Ilford's expectations? No idea. As a guy who's on the edge of just shooting 4X5 and 5X7 for film and leaving the rest of digital, and deaccessioning my other film gear....understanding the bigger picture would be helpful.
Ortho Plus isn't offered in 5X7 so I wrote Ilford asking about other emulsions and their response was that from time to time they do offer Ortho through the Annual ULF. Clearly not in 2024 which I checked. But I'm new to 5X7 so I can't recount it.
One thing I'd love to see is just how big or small or "healthy and steady" demand for sheet film actually is. Size of the market? No idea. And is sheet film participating in any of the Analog Film Revival.... or not? Im very encouraged by Intrepid's Kickstarter for a new shutter..... but it would otherwise it'd be sweet to understand the actual relative scarcity of shutters, lenses etc. and the direction of the market. Ilford's making of Ortho Plus in 4X5 is a decent sign.... but how much was a gamble, a stab and a try-and-see and to what extent has the response met / exceeded or even failed to meet Ilford's expectations? No idea. As a guy who's on the edge of just shooting 4X5 and 5X7 for film and leaving the rest of digital, and deaccessioning my other film gear....understanding the bigger picture would be helpful.
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I always heard from manufacturers like Ilford and stores that 35 mm was and is the king, 120 is the second at a great distance and sheet film is a niche. Adox is a small company and player with very limited resources that must calculate very welll where the efforts are made, I can understand that sheet film is at the end of the prioriries list along with paper.
Photochemistry is sort of "easy" compared to film, as long they are following known recipes and mixing them from purchased raw components.
Sheet film is a tiny part of the market. Ilford cannot afford to add more film types to their sheet film repertoire without cannibalizing what they already offer.
I'm sure it is. Which I think is also a pretty clear answer why ADOX apparently has pulled out of this segment and shows very little movement towards return.
But...the right person to comment on this is of course @ADOX Fotoimpex
FWIW, I don't think sheet film fell as far or as hard as 35/120/other smaller formats did during the digital invasion. It was only after 2010 or so, when the shouting was all but over, that digital caught up with large format information content (and you could make a case that it still hasn't, quite). OTOH, sheet film was a niche market before that -- 4x5 was normal in the 1940s, almost all press photographers used it. In the 1950s, it was 120, and after 1960 or so it was 35 mm. Large format was for art or special high-information needs by 1955 at the latest -- and as such, was never going to be a major seller, but likewise wasn't going to go away entirely (just like oil paints never went away after the 1840s-1880s onslaught of photography).
It's not so long ago you couldn't get CHS100ii in any shape; then it came back as 35mm, then as 120. Currently out of stock as 120 again, for mail order. Given their past behaviour I'd be amazed if Adox chose to stop making their own sheet film.
Gee.... I was really hoping to draw the Adox folks into posting something worthy of giving a little encouragement here. Maybe we might get that in 2025?
I messaged Adox a couple of times last year and got no reply when asking about sheet film sizes of CHS 100 II, but I did get a response from Fotoimpex when I inquired, and this is what they said in January of 2024:
"Unfortunatly we are not able to offer those and other sheetfilm sizes until further notice. We don´t have a confirmed delivery date yet."
I suppose this is still the case. There’s an obstacle to sheet film production at Adox, but the nature of this obstacle remains a mystery. Unfortunate, as I would have bought at least 2 or 3 boxes of CHS 100 II in 8x10 last year if that had been an option. Maybe next year...
Andrew O'Neill
Moderator
Oh well, there are other films out there...
Analogish Andy: Yes of course. But the more the merrier definitely applies. Encouraging folks to a format like 5X7 definitely takes more options than just 2 or 3 Ilford films (much as I love them). I have a couple of boxes of Adox 4X5 with their wonderful swirls of grain, and am just curious about whether that's it.... and I should ration it accordingly, or whether they'll put out any 5X7.
Andrew O'Neill
Moderator
Don't get me wrong, I'll be first in line if CHS 100 comes out in sheet film again!
I hope it's not a permanent trend, but if you haven't noticed, Adox is lately concentrating on things with big margins that still sell. And sheet film is neither a big seller or has huge margins.
Home use chemistry or colour paper on the other hand can be purchased for peanuts and sold with huge margins when repackaged into home consumable items... The hard stuff (like colour negative film) is taking the back seat. Lets hope that changes at some point.
Home use chemistry or colour paper on the other hand can be purchased for peanuts and sold with huge margins when repackaged into home consumable items... The hard stuff (like colour negative film) is taking the back seat. Lets hope that changes at some point.
One thing about Adox. There's good business smarts in what is produced. And everything is manufactured to the highest standards.
We are starting to see color and black and white 35mm and 120 film from China showing up in the USA, there's a part of the market that is looking for Cheap!
Ilford is pretty dominant in sheet film. Foma too. Hopefully we will see more Adox.
We are starting to see color and black and white 35mm and 120 film from China showing up in the USA, there's a part of the market that is looking for Cheap!
Ilford is pretty dominant in sheet film. Foma too. Hopefully we will see more Adox.
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If necessary, 5x7 can be cut down in a darkroom from more common 8x10 film.
I wouldn't be as anxious to see the return of CHS 100 II in sheet film sizes if it weren't so totally different from anything Ilford produces. It's quite unlike anything else. It has a kind of acutance and tonal separation that no other film offers.
It all comes down to dollars and sense.
I recently used some 4x5 trix after using foma 100 and fp4...that emulsion kicks ass and i never felt chs100 was that great. Like it or not kodak Ilford and foma are making some great films. The same goes for the paper they made for like,1 minute...the only box i had was actually fogged and only realized much later that it was NOT use error.
I only wish adox the best for yhe analog community.
I recently used some 4x5 trix after using foma 100 and fp4...that emulsion kicks ass and i never felt chs100 was that great. Like it or not kodak Ilford and foma are making some great films. The same goes for the paper they made for like,1 minute...the only box i had was actually fogged and only realized much later that it was NOT use error.
I only wish adox the best for yhe analog community.
If I were running a business that employed a couple of people, I'd also prefer to keep them employed for as long/much as possible. Hobbies are nice to have, but they rarely pay the bills.
I agree. My comment was not meant to question Adox priorities*, even though I would much prefer they would introduce Color Mission II, MCC, Polywarmtone and whatnot...Reality rarely asks for my opinion.
* But I do think that they should've done better with their new Color Mission RA-4 paper.
Yes, I understand - and I agree. It would be great to have MCC and/or Polywarmtone back, and Color Mission was/is an interesting project I hope they'll pursue one day. Although w.r.t. that one, I imagine that the difficult (impossible) situation surrounding Inovis has pretty much killed that one off.
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