Adox MCC 110 - Paper Follow Up

ymc226 · Jan 11, 2010

I just ordered 100 sheets of 8x10 and 50 sheets of 11x14 to try from Freestyle.

In terms of speed, how does it compare to Ilford MG IV or MG Warmtone both fiber based. I have to calibrate my RH Designs Analyzer Pro so I would like a ballpark much faster, faster or slower so I can minimize wastage.

RH Designs · Jan 12, 2010

As MCC110 is basically the same as Agfa Multicontrast FB you can use the figures for Agfa on our web site as a starting point. The paper is about a third of a stop faster than Ilford MG IV FB. If you have already calibrated MG IV, add the offset figures in our table to your exsting ones. For example, if your offset for MG IV grade 3 is +3, add the -2 for MCC to that figure to get +2 as your new offset for MCC. Enter the contrast figures as per the table.

Ken N · Jan 12, 2010

Richard, a question for you. The published curves for MG IV show Grades 00-3 having their straight-line sections all cross at a point differently than MCC110. MCC110's published curves all meet at the mid-tone density. Secondly, the toe and shoulder of MG IV is not equal to each other, whereas the published graphs of MCC110 show them to be more uniform.

How does the ZoneMaster II address toe/shoulder or does it assume linearity? In my own testing during the calibration of the papers, I find the published curves to reasonably match my own experience with the papers, but haven't quite figured out how the ZM2 calculates the outer most dots on the scale which would fall into the toe and shoulder.

During the calibration process for the ZoneMaster II, we set the white point first with offset, then the black point with contrast. (simplified description). Because the toe and shoulder of the papers is not the same the midpoint ends up sliding around a little bit. Essentially, there is a gamma offset to the papers.

Can you give me an idea how the ZoneMaster II deals with this and should I be determining my offset not with the "just off white" but maybe the midtone gray?

RH Designs · Jan 13, 2010

Hi Ken,

Basically the calibration of the Analyser / ZoneMaster is intended to cover only the linear portion of the paper curve for exactly the reason that the toe and shoulder areas are non-linear. The calibration of early models was based on a mid grey but this caused problems with the shadow/highlight areas with papers whose curves differed significantly from the standard Ilford MG IV. The late lamented Kentmere Art Classic and Kentona are examples of such a paper.

Setting the end points at 0.04 log.D for the highlights and 90% of Dmax for the shadows avoids the toe and shoulder areas of the paper curve where density is a non-linear function of exposure, and that's why we suggest using those densities for the grey scale endpoints during calibration. Some papers have less linearity in the "linear" portion of the curve than others, so you are correct that the mid grey can vary from paper to paper. For this reason the products feature a special 15-step "test strip" mode which allows you to make your own grey scale strip based on the calibration end points you've chosen; this will maximise the match between the meter's indications and the results on the print. In practice few people do this, but the facility is there for those who need it. If you routinely tone prints for example, you can make a toned grey scale strip to improve accuracy.

Our calibration procedure was designed to give good results across the range of available papers and to avoid potential difficulties in the toe and shoulder areas, but the meter's flexibility is such that you can choose your own end points to suit your own requirements.

Hope that helps!

Ken N · Jan 17, 2010

Thanks, Richard. That was exactly the answer I was looking for.

Ken

Samy Snider · Jan 18, 2010

I tried Adox MCC 110 yesterday ( the prints are now under books in order to be flat ), it's really an amazing paper, very deep blacks and beautiful tones, I love ths results with Dektol. There's really something special about it. However, it seems to me that this paper is lighter than Agfa Multicontrast.
Soon, I will try to publish a comparison between a Ilford Warmtone FB print and a MCC 110 print.

rwboyer · Jan 18, 2010

Samy Snider said:
I tried Adox MCC 110 yesterday ( the prints are now under books in order to be flat ), it's really an amazing paper, very deep blacks and beautiful tones, I love ths results with Dektol. There's really something special about it. However, it seems to me that this paper is lighter than Agfa Multicontrast.
Soon, I will try to publish a comparison between a Ilford Warmtone FB print and a MCC 110 print.

If what you mean by lighter is that the whites are brighter than it is - it is the same emulsion coated on a brighter white base. An improvement for my needs.

If not I would love to know what you mean.

RB

Samy Snider · Jan 19, 2010

Hi rwboyer,
sorry I wasn't clear, when I said that the paper seemed lighter to me, I was talking about the weight: I have the impression that it's less heavy in terms of grams than agfa multicontrast.

mikebarger · Jan 19, 2010

I just got some more MCC 110 and I ordered a box of the MCP 310 also.
I'm maybe more impressed with the MCP 310. Might had just had lower expectations, both are great!

At less than 1/2 the price of MCC 110, I probably will use more of the MCP 310 and save the MCC 110 for serious stuff.

Mike

Mahler_one · Jan 19, 2010

RH Designs said:
Hi Ken,

Basically the calibration of the Analyser / ZoneMaster is intended to cover only the linear portion of the paper curve for exactly the reason that the toe and shoulder areas are non-linear. The calibration of early models was based on a mid grey but this caused problems with the shadow/highlight areas with papers whose curves differed significantly from the standard Ilford MG IV. The late lamented Kentmere Art Classic and Kentona are examples of such a paper.

Setting the end points at 0.04 log.D for the highlights and 90% of Dmax for the shadows avoids the toe and shoulder areas of the paper curve where density is a non-linear function of exposure, and that's why we suggest using those densities for the grey scale endpoints during calibration. Some papers have less linearity in the "linear" portion of the curve than others, so you are correct that the mid grey can vary from paper to paper. For this reason the products feature a special 15-step "test strip" mode which allows you to make your own grey scale strip based on the calibration end points you've chosen; this will maximise the match between the meter's indications and the results on the print. In practice few people do this, but the facility is there for those who need it. If you routinely tone prints for example, you can make a toned grey scale strip to improve accuracy.

Our calibration procedure was designed to give good results across the range of available papers and to avoid potential difficulties in the toe and shoulder areas, but the meter's flexibility is such that you can choose your own end points to suit your own requirements.

Hope that helps!

Hi Richard:

Not only was your post interesting, but your explanation of "linearity" and the useful "limits" of the ability to print on the toe and shoulder are just about the simplest and best explanation of such limits since those in the Phil Davis book. Well done! Heck, I'm getting tempted to buy the Zone Master just to learn more about the paper curves :}! Thanks.

Ed

RH Designs · Jan 19, 2010

Thanks Ed - glad it helped. If you have a reflection densitometer it's instructive to print a step wedge and plot the print density vs exposure - that really shows you what's happening.

Ken N · Jan 19, 2010

RH Designs said:
Thanks Ed - glad it helped. If you have a reflection densitometer it's instructive to print a step wedge and plot the print density vs exposure - that really shows you what's happening.

Richard, he's wanting to buy the ZoneMaster II. Don't encourage him to figure things out without it.

BTW, I found part of my exposure problem. Just part--still mysteries to solve. My enlarger is set up in temporary digs and was up next to unpainted drywall. Still way off from my previous calibration. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm running into a water PH problem. (moved to another city).

Richard Jepsen · Jan 19, 2010

I used Agfa 111 Classic FB and a condensor enlarger when I returned to photography in 1996. As a result, my negatives do not have the CI needed to split low/mid tones on ILFORD MG IV fiber. So, if this paper has a short contrast range then it may be a good tool. I also like the grey scale of the older paper.

RH Designs · Jan 19, 2010

Ken N said:
Richard, he's wanting to buy the ZoneMaster II. Don't encourage him to figure things out without it.

BTW, I found part of my exposure problem. Just part--still mysteries to solve. My enlarger is set up in temporary digs and was up next to unpainted drywall. Still way off from my previous calibration. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm running into a water PH problem. (moved to another city).

I thought it a bit cheeky to try the salesman act, but Ed, there's a ZoneMaster here with "reserved" on it

Ken, I guess it's possible that the water may have an effect. There are so many variables in photography that sometimes it's hard to keep them all under control. I hope you get it nailed down soon.

Ken N · Jan 19, 2010

RH Designs said:
I thought it a bit cheeky to try the salesman act, but Ed, there's a ZoneMaster here with "reserved" on it

Ken, I guess it's possible that the water may have an effect. There are so many variables in photography that sometimes it's hard to keep them all under control. I hope you get it nailed down soon.

Richard, as a 100% satisfied customer I'm going to suggest that "cheeky is in". Nicolas can pipe in here with his wares too, but just as I've done for the several years, I'll continue to sing your praises.

My calibrated configuration has me a little confounded. I've got notes on what my settings are for making proof sheets on MGIV glossy with MG developer. Everything is absolutely identical and my print ends up being 2X overexposed. Go figure. Even the ZXii settings are way off with my offset being around -9.

Mahler_one · Jan 19, 2010

RH Designs said:
I thought it a bit cheeky to try the salesman act, but Ed, there's a ZoneMaster here with "reserved" on it

Ken, I guess it's possible that the water may have an effect. There are so many variables in photography that sometimes it's hard to keep them all under control. I hope you get it nailed down soon.

Richard...send it on over ! Seriously, I don't believe that any of the available meters ( yours or Nick's ) have any application in contact printing...if so, let me know by PM. I already have an F stop timer.

Ed

Mahler_one · Jan 19, 2010

Richard: Evidently my original response was lost.

Well before this thread began, I had already done some studies with the new ADOX paper using a 21 step wedge, primarily in a contact printing mode ( that is what I am currently pursuing ). I found as you had, i.e., the response of the new Adox was very close to that of the Ilford Multigrade....using Zone vi and Ilford Multigrade developers. The Adox was indeed about a stop faster, and had a slightly greater 90% DMax on the paper curve. I am unable to see why a contact print using a correctly exposed 8x10 negative made with the new paper vs. Ilford Multigrade will be very much different. Of course, others might be using a different developer, and projection printing. I am NOT denigrating any of the previous positive comments concerning the new ADOX which I am very happy to have on the market and available for wide spread use. I hope ADOX continues to bring more products for analog photographers to try and use.

Ed

Sal Santamaura · Mar 13, 2013

mikebarger said:
...I'm going to keep right on using it. I'd just use "more" if it came in larger boxes with a discount...

A bit over two years later, you can start using more beginning this Friday:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/15684-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-8x10-100?cat_id=503

Note that, compared to the cost of four 25-sheet packages, you'll save a whopping six cents per sheet.

Renato Tonelli · Mar 14, 2013

Sal Santamaura said:
A bit over two years later, you can start using more beginning this Friday:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/15684-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-8x10-100?cat_id=503

Note that, compared to the cost of four 25-sheet packages, you'll save a whopping six cents per sheet.

Sal - "a penny saved is a penny earned."

Kidding aside, I am glad it is being offered in 100-shgeet boxes - I find them more convenient. Currently I have about 500 sheets of the stuff so it will be some time before I will need more...

Adox MCC 110 - Paper Follow Up

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Adox MCC 110 - Paper Follow Up

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