Adox D76 ?!

Ernst-Jan · Jun 18, 2023

I am reading the latest Photoklassik magazine (the German and according to my humble opinion better version of Silvergrain Classics) and came across this advertisement

Great news I would say, since Adox chemicals to me mean reliability and constant quality and supply.

Due to the whole Sinopromise thing, quality issues with XTol and Dektol etc I never used Kodak chemicals. I used ID11 instead. But what will happen to the availability of Ilford chemicals after bunkruptcy of Norderstedter Chemiewerke (manufacturing part of Tetenal) is also not clear.

So cheers to a new supplier that's committed to analogue photography.

pentaxuser · Jun 18, 2023

Yes Adox mentioned this in a thread about the current state of Kodak chemicals. There was some discussion about Adox D-76 will have the same Kodak times for films. I note this is a one packet developer as opposed to the two of ID11 so my second wonder is: has Adox used the same chelating agents I think they are called

So two "I wonders" spring to mind. My third I wonder is the price. Is it comparable with the Kodak D76 price and the Ilford ID11 price?

As far as the Ilford situation in respect of chemicals is concerned I wrote to them and they replied that they had good stock of chemicals and supply continues but that was at the end of April

pentaxuser

Alan9940 · Jun 18, 2023

I like and use several Adox products, but availability here in the USA is really sketchy. It was something like 6 months before Freestyle finally got a limited supply of Rodinal!

As for D-76, it's such an easy formula to mix yourself it just seems more economical to go that way.

Don_ih · Jun 18, 2023

pentaxuser said:
a one packet developer

The magic ingredients are to make all the chemicals play well together. If you mix up the ingredients for D76 as a powder, just as they are, they will react while being stored, thus killing the developer.
Legacy Pro D76 (L76), I suspect, didn't do anything to prevent that problem. I had a packet of it, mixed it up, and it was 100% dead. I'd had the packet for months - but that should not be an unusual wait time for it.

pentaxuser · Jun 18, 2023

Don Heisz said:
The magic ingredients are to make all the chemicals play well together. If you mix up the ingredients for D76 as a powder, just as they are, they will react while being stored, thus killing the developer.
Legacy Pro D76 (L76), I suspect, didn't do anything to prevent that problem. I had a packet of it, mixed it up, and it was 100% dead. I'd had the packet for months - but that should not be an unusual wait time for it.

Right so I take it Don that your conclusion is that Adox has found and included the magic ingredients otherwise it risks the problem of Legacy Pro D76 which for Adox sounds like an unlikely risk to take

Thanks

pentaxuser

removedacct2 · Jun 18, 2023

Ernst-Jan said:
came across this advertisement

Adox D-76 has been on sale for some time now. I buy ready to use chemicals from their reselling business Fotoimpex or from Maco, and have seen their D76 there before.
I too greatly appreciate Adox dedication to film, but their newer chemicals for me fall in the "green" silliness. The biologischer Abbaubarkeit and Staubfrei marketing made me laugh.
I rather like they put money in manufacturing film. Dying from inhalation of some loose nano dust of metol, hydroquinone or borax when mixing my developers in the kitchen is less a concern to me. I don't put my nose inside a bag either.

Don_ih · Jun 18, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Right so I take it Don that your conclusion is that Adox has found and included the magic ingredients otherwise it risks the problem of Legacy Pro D76 which for Adox sounds like an unlikely risk to take

Thanks

pentaxuser

I only said I suspect Legacy Pro didn't have any magic ingredients. Far be it from me to badmouth them. Adox has likely done what it can to make the mixture stable.

pentaxuser · Jun 18, 2023

Don Heisz said:
I only said I suspect Legacy Pro didn't have any magic ingredients. Far be it from me to badmouth them. Adox has likely done what it can to make the mixture stable.

Yes I'd be surprised if it hadn't as well

pentaxuser

Alan Johnson · Jun 19, 2023

https://www.fotoimpex.com/shop/images/products/media/66976_4_MSDS_EN.pdf

CAS 55 55 0 is metol.
Since it is borate free it may have a carbonate/bicarbonate buffer that need not be included in the msds.

Scott J. · Jun 19, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I note this is a one packet developer as opposed to the two of ID11 so my second wonder is: has Adox used the same chelating agents I think they are called

Kodak adds a couple extra ingredients to D-76 that serve the purpose of stabilizing the developer. The first is a coating that keeps the components in the dry powder from reacting with oxygen or with each other. The second is a sequestering agent that's designed to consume most (if not all) of the divalent ions (primarily calcium) present in the water used to prepare the stock and working solutions. Divalent ions are common problems in aqueous chemistry. Sequestration is intended to allow for the creation of consistent deveoper solutions regardless of the water source used.

Tap water that's really hard, or similarly, a working solution that's highly dilute, will still pose a problem due to inadequate sequestering agent. A similar phenomenon was the source of the problems with Xtol in the early 2000s, where high dilutions of the working solution reduced the capacity of the iron-sequestering agent and one would end up with a rapidly oxidized, weak developer. I believe Kodak overcame the problem by increasing the concentration of the sequestering agent in the dry powder and by cautioning against dilutions greater than 1+3.

It seems likely Adox has added similar ingredients to their D-76. I wonder if their anti-dusting agent (Captura) might even be playing some role with regard to the first issue (i.e., preventing oxidation and reaction between dry components). Kinda excited to try this, as the last time I tried Kodak D-76 (manufactured by Sino Promise) it gave disappointingly thin negatives.

Don_ih · Jun 19, 2023

Alan Johnson said:
it is borate free

Borax is not listed on the MSDS, but neither is sodium carbonate. So, is there actually no borax in it or did they just not list it? D76 should contain either borax or sodium metaborate.

Scott J. · Jun 19, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Borax is not listed on the MSDS, but neither is sodium carbonate. So, is there actually no borax in it or did they just not list it? D76 should contain either borax or sodium metaborate.

I've seen Kodak D-76 SDSs that list sodium tetraborate (Borax) and some that do not. The ones that do list it report a concentration of 0.1-1.0 wt% (see for example: https://www.freestylephoto.com/stat...is_SDS_US_English_-_D76_Developer_1058270.pdf). My general understanding is that OSHA doesn't require reporting of a compound if it's present at <1.0 wt%.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the requirements for European SDSs, which I discovered are governed by Annex II of the REACH regulation. It appears to mirror OSHA's rules, where a chemical component has to be listed on an SDS if it's present at 1.0 wt% or more. (For components that are more heavily regulated due to acute toxicity, like PBTs and vPvBs, they have to be listed if they're present at 0.1% or more.) Sodium tetraborate doesn't qualify as a PBT or vPvB, so it stands to reason that if it's present in Adox's D-76, it's simply below the 1.0 wt% threshold and hasn't been disclosed.

Don_ih · Jun 19, 2023

Scott J. said:
OSHA doesn't require reporting of a compound if it's present at <1.0 wt%.

There are 2g of Borax in the mix for a litre of D76, which is a total mass of around 115g. If kodalk is used instead of borax, the ratio should be the same - slightly less than 2%.

Donald Qualls · Jun 19, 2023

Adox is on record as having eliminated borates from their developers. Their XT-3 has no borax, either, despite being an Xtol work-alike.

This is apparently due to EU environmental regs; borates in the waste stream are a Very Bad Thing in Europe, apparently.

koraks · Jun 19, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
borates in the waste stream are a Very Bad Thing in Europe, apparently.

Not just the waste stream. Borax (and probably all borates) are a controlled substance in the EU for safety reasons. It has become nearly as challenging for private individuals to purchase borax as, say dichromate. Whether that's justified...well, I think it's clear to anyone the risk profiles of these substances are completely different, and that it's debatable how dangerous borax realistically is. But that doesn't change the fact that it's logical if Adox has indeed eliminated borates from their products.

Don_ih · Jun 19, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Adox is on record as having eliminated borates from their developers.

Then that answers that question.
But they had to replace it with something. TSP? Or if they used potassium carbonate, they'd need only a slight amount per litre of developer - probably easily less than a gram. 2 grams of Borax per litre of D76 doesn't amount to much of a boost in alkalinity, does it?

Lachlan Young · Jun 19, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Then that answers that question.
But they had to replace it with something. TSP? Or if they used potassium carbonate, they'd need only a slight amount per litre of developer - probably easily less than a gram. 2 grams of Borax per litre of D76 doesn't amount to much of a boost in alkalinity, does it?

There are various replacement buffers for borate buffering. I recollect that it might be Trilon C that Adox is using.

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2023

Lachlan Young said:
There are various replacement buffers for borate buffering. I recollect that it might be Trilon C that Adox is using.

How does one find these sorts of thing out, Lachlan? Is it listed in whatever Adox has to publish about its D-76?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Lachlan Young · Jun 19, 2023

pentaxuser said:
How does one find these sorts of thing out, Lachlan? Is it listed in whatever Adox has to publish about its D-76?

Thanks

pentaxuser

MSDS/ COSHH. And it was Trilon-M, not Trilon-C - there was a whole thread about it here, back when XT-3 launched.

Don_ih · Jun 19, 2023

Lachlan Young said:
Trilon-M

Is a liquid chelating agent.

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2023

Lachlan Young said:
MSDS/ COSHH. And it was Trilon-M, not Trilon-C - there was a whole thread about it here, back when XT-3 launched.

Thanks Just so I am clear was this Trilon-M mentioned in that thread such that it was clear this was the borax substitute that was going to be used by Adox as a borax substitute whenever it needed to?

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Jun 19, 2023

Trilon M

Note the ph. Maybe kills two birds with one stone. They only sell it as a liquid, though.

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2023

Thanks Don I read the text for Trilon M. Never overestimate my chemistry knowledge. I know I don't but I couldn't see any link with a chelating agent and its uses and it being a substitute for borax buffering.

Can you explain the link in primary school language. Thanks

pentaxuser

Alan Johnson · Jun 19, 2023

How's AdoXTOL coming along, Team Adox?

Hopefully once Freestyle has it I'll feel a bit better as right now every drop of this stuff feels precious. I contacted Freestyle last week and asked when they anticipated having XT-3 in stock and Oliver replied that it would probably be some time around the end of May to mid-June. He...

www.photrio.com

Mentioned here.

Renato Tonelli · Jun 19, 2023

Scott J. said:
Kodak adds a couple extra ingredients to D-76 that serve the purpose of stabilizing the developer. The first is a coating that keeps the components in the dry powder from reacting with oxygen or with each other. The second is a sequestering agent that's designed to consume most (if not all) of the divalent ions (primarily calcium) present in the water used to prepare the stock and working solutions. Divalent ions are common problems in aqueous chemistry. Sequestration is intended to allow for the creation of consistent deveoper solutions regardless of the water source used.

Tap water that's really hard, or similarly, a working solution that's highly dilute, will still pose a problem due to inadequate sequestering agent. A similar phenomenon was the source of the problems with Xtol in the early 2000s, where high dilutions of the working solution reduced the capacity of the iron-sequestering agent and one would end up with a rapidly oxidized, weak developer. I believe Kodak overcame the problem by increasing the concentration of the sequestering agent in the dry powder and by cautioning against dilutions greater than 1+3.

It seems likely Adox has added similar ingredients to their D-76. I wonder if their anti-dusting agent (Captura) might even be playing some role with regard to the first issue (i.e., preventing oxidation and reaction between dry components). Kinda excited to try this, as the last time I tried Kodak D-76 (manufactured by Sino Promise) it gave disappointingly thin negatives.

Thank you for pointing this out.
My guess is that it points to the reason(s) why companies like Photographer's Formulary sell their developer kits as they do (each chemical separately sealed in its own packet).

Adox D76 ?!

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