Adox CMS 20 II: Pyrocat-HD?

[peoplemerge]

TL;DR: Anyone tried Adox CMS 20 II in Pyrocat-HD? What dilution / times?

So I took a chance on CMS 20. I'm also brand new to Pyrocat-HD having avoided the temptation and feared the toxicity for a few years. Maybe this is the time to try it.

I shot this film at box speed 20. The situation was a bit fun. My buddy was married at the nice SF city club, with "real" photographers and their DSLRs. So (yes permission was requested and granted) I showed up with the most ridiculous rig imaginable - the monster Fuji GX680, mostly handheld with a heiland on a stroboframe and a 3 boxes of GE #5 flashbulbs. I guess the idea was to enjoy the event myself and attempt a couple of artistic looking shots. Grin.

Given the moving subjects, this is a high contrast scene: faces closer to the flash bulb, dramatic dark out of focus background. Before I shot it I was thinking of sending it to dr5 to develop reversal. The more I think about it, the more I realize this isn't what I want. I'd prefer extra shadow detail, I might want to print it,... Then, the latitude: look ma, no TTL - I had to rely on my flashmeter lining up with the pencil+paper calculations I worked out in advance, taking distance readings with my rangefinder then mostly eyeballing the distance to subject.

Researching this film, I see lots of good reports with Adotech II / III - no surprise there. That seems the safe bet but I've never used it and don't have any. (there was a url link here which no longer exists) suggest that this option would result in even higher contrast and would have been better at ISO 12 or less. I do have an unopened box of Pyrocat-HD, an opened bottle of Tmax that expired 2014, and some other chemicals people have reported less favorable.

If anyone has a starting point for CMS 20 in Pyrocat-HD, I think the situation could merit the further exploration and a test roll or two. I did shoot a roll on Delta 3200 and one Portra 160 (yep, used the 5b flashbulbs for that one in color) so I have a fallback plan.

 

[darkosaric]

Also don't forget that CMS20 has shorter time in fixer --> there was some discussion here about it.

 

[FerruB]

Hi,
Did you try already to develop in Pyrocat? Do you have some feedback? I would like to experiment as well this combination (adox CMS 20II + Pyrocat HD) and to control the high contrast I was thinking to try with a two bath pyrocat HD development (starting from: 5 minutes Sol A 1:20 with constant agitation and 5 minutes Sol B 1:20 with constant agitation).
Cheers
Ferru

 

[pentaxpete]

Maybe you would be 'safer' processing in 'Beutler' Formula -- if the film is 'High Contrast' only Metol is present as reducer and the dilution means solution is 'gentle'

 

[peoplemerge]

Hey guys! Just noticed your responses. Given the risks I took and their importance, I ordered adotech iii, processed, and the results came out sensational. I printed it at 20x24 and there was not so much as a hint of grain. Contrast levels absolutely put them in the usable printing range with a diffusion enlarger with plenty to work with in the midtones. Combined with the flash bulbs, it produced a pleasant old-fashioned look, very 1920s Hollywood walk of fame.

I think I'll be using films like these more since there are a lot of situations where there is too much light for normal photography: for example using even the minimum settings for Photogenic 600 w/s strobes, flashbulbs, wide apertures, and small working areas.

I did a glamour studio shoot last night, very much looking forward to seeing the results. Metered for ISO 12 but will process this roll normal in adotech iii.

I have a lot more film in the fridge than I have (expensive) developer, so I'll do some testing soon.

@FerruB did you try that combination? @pentaxpete makes sense. I'm new to pyro but will look into that.

 

[FerruB]

Hi, good to know that you are happy with your results, post some picture if you have the occasion! The price for a small bottle of adotech iii is crazy...
I still have my Adox roll somewhere in the fridge, maybe this weekend I will give a try with the pyrocat two bath development! My only concern is that the emulsion of this film is very thin and it will not retain much developer...we will see, I am still experimenting with pyrocat but so far I am very happy with the results on Tmax and triX!
Cheers
Ferru

 

[trendland]

Maybe you would be 'safer' processing in 'Beutler' Formula -- if the film is 'High Contrast' only Metol is present as reducer and the dilution means solution is 'gentle'

I am not as quite sure that cms 20 is very high contrasty. I is also depending
to the E.I. - of cause it is so.

But is it not so that the main advantage
of this film is High Resolution?

Beutler in general is a good choise to
many films - but here with cms 20
Beutler should be predestinate.

with regards

 

[Lachlan Young]

Realistically, your choices unless you want wild untameable contrast are: Adotech iii (for a negative); or sending it to Photostudio 13 in Stuttgart to be run through the Scala process (for a transparency) - which can still be incredibly contrasty if you don't shoot it in low contrast situations.

Beutler is a high definition developer (& an overly mythologised one at that), not meant for re-purposed 'document' films like CMS20.

 

[trendland]

Realistically, your choices unless you want wild untameable contrast are: Adotech iii (for a negative); or sending it to Photostudio 13 in Stuttgart to be run through the Scala process (for a transparency) - which can still be incredibly contrasty if you don't shoot it in low contrast situations.

Beutler is a high definition developer (& an overly mythologised one at that), not meant for re-purposed 'document' films like CMS20.

Is it the same as Agfa Copex Rapid ?
Because therefore is a good recomandation to spur special developer
I am not sure about just out from mind?

But you are right - the best recomandation a photographer can get
is from themselfes.
So wy not with pyro developers - may be
interesting to lokal on results.
And stain should be nice - perhaps.

with regards

 

[FerruB]

Just developed Adox 20 (EI 12) in pyrocat HD two baths: 1+15, 5 minutes for both solutions. Scene was extremely contrasty: white sand, tropical sun.
Resulting negatives are extremely thin and with a strange pattern (see the positives), not sure where it is from. However doesn't seem to be staining form water drying up. Any idea where could it come from? I still have 4 virgin rolls of this in the fridge, any idea how I can improve the process (without changing developer)? I am thinking to make the solutions more concentrated like 1+10 to increase contrast and maybe a bit more time.
Cheers
Ferru

 

[trendland]

There are some old pyro formulas with tree parts - I might to remember.
And with change the delution of Part 2 and 3 you get a contrast control.
I have this formulas - But don't ask me
where they are.
Only from my mind they are from the 40th and 50th so as many of them but they have a concern to
older formulations to that time.
1920 ? 1930 ?
If you look through the Internet you should find it.

with regards

 

[trendland]

And of cause pryrocat hd was later - but
the agends in all formulas are very simular. It you will understand the older
formuations in regard of changing amounds of part 2 and 3 you will very simple be able to change pyrocat hd in formulation a bit in direktion of this method.
Sorry I can't tell you more - because I still have not developers with pyro in use.

May be in the near future. If I personaly
would be forced to have results with pyrocat hd at once (without the time to find my formulas) and with same problems in contrast as you - and the shooting is tomorrow : I would try to shoot with higher E.I. (2 stops) and I would have to develope with little higher
temperatur (24C) and with longer times
(x 2) to have better results at once.
But the smarter method is changing your
pyrocat hd.
Can't say from mind sorry.

Perhaps others have perfect method for
you just from much more experience
with pyro.
Sure you can get a solution - I've seen
b/w negatives from comercial labs with
worste contrast then yours.
Bon chance

 

[Craig75]

If its the same as Agfa Copex HDP then you cant shoot high contrast scenes and you need to change your developer if those are your results.

If you are determined to use that developer you could try increasing dilution and say development at 15 degrees to lengthen time and lower contrast but from my limited experience with Copex you will struggle to get decent results if thats what you got from 5 minutes of development

 

[trendland]

Sorry to ask you - just to understand your problem.
Is your problem that your negatives are very thin, you shoot extrem contrasty
szenes and you want to have more contrast to your negatives ?
Or don you want to have more tonal range in your negatives?
Just to have more tonals it should go in the other direction than I reported.
Exact in the way Craig75 mentioned just before.
If phyro-hd is a good developer to this film I would not trust to say .
But if you are interested to hear :
My very first thoughts on the highligts
of this thread : "Strange - cms20 with pyro developer? "
But neuer mind in this - pyrocat......
WHY NOT ?

with regards

 

[Lachlan Young]

Is it the same as Agfa Copex Rapid ?

No it isn't - it's a couple of stops slower in Scala than Copex Rapid & much, much more contrasty.

If you can read German, see: http://www.photostudio13.de/wp-cont...-Scala-Entwicklung-neue-Version-Juni-2016.pdf for the whole details of what can be run in Scala process.

 

[FerruB]

Thank you for the ideas! I actually would like to improve the overall tonal range and obtain bit denser negs...therefore more exposure E.I. 6, more diluted solutions (1+20 for both) and same development time, do you agree?

About the apparent non uniformity of the development what could be the cause? Here (http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/TwoBathPyrocat.html) they suggest to add a couple of drops of photo-flow to the development solutions...could be that simple?

Cheers,
Ferru

 

[Lachlan Young]

Thank you for the ideas! I actually would like to improve the overall tonal range and obtain bit denser negs...therefore more exposure E.I. 6, more diluted solutions (1+20 for both) and same development time, do you agree?

About the apparent non uniformity of the development what could be the cause? Here (http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/TwoBathPyrocat.html) they suggest to add a couple of drops of photo-flow to the development solutions...could be that simple?

Cheers,
Ferru

I recall it's extremely sensitive to poor agitation etc - & being a document film, its grain construction/ makeup is somewhat different to a more standard film. By using in this way (for lower contrast etc), you're taking it quite far outside its original design parameters, thus weird & inexplicable artifacts can happen quite readily. I'd be inclined to follow the agitation routine that the adotech instructions recommend.

 

[Craig75]

Thank you for the ideas! I actually would like to improve the overall tonal range and obtain bit denser negs...therefore more exposure E.I. 6, more diluted solutions (1+20 for both) and same development time, do you agree?

About the apparent non uniformity of the development what could be the cause? Here (http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/TwoBathPyrocat.html) they suggest to add a couple of drops of photo-flow to the development solutions...could be that simple?

Cheers,
Ferru

You want thin negatives. Unlike other films the grain structure of agfa microfilm means that you can actually fog the highlights by over exposure (in my very basic understanding of an old essay on the film by the guy who did the spur developer). Latitude of exposure is extremely limited.

Having had negatives exactly like yours from my first roll those have been way overdeveloped and from the marks also underagitated so i would say you have reached a dead end with that developer film combination and you need a total rethink.

Of course this is just from my very limited experience

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I developed a couple of sheets in divided pyrocat-hd. 1+15 for both A and B. I put a couple of drops of Fuji Drywell (Japan's Photoflo). Probably not necessary, but.... I have used it for divided tray development, with success.
I used my BTZS tubes, 6 minutes for both solutions. 21 degrees Celcius. Development was nice and even, with good density. Highlights didn't show separation as well as POTA, though.

 

[Henning Serger]

I've tested ADOX CMS 20 II in several 'normal, 'standard' developers and compared that to the results with its dedicated developer ADOX Adotech IV.
The results in comparison have always been the same:
The by far best results are always delivered by the dedicated Adotech IV developer: Best characteristic curve, best tonality, best detail rendition.
The results with standard developers cannot compete.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've tested ADOX CMS 20 II in several 'normal, 'standard' developers and compared that to the results with its dedicated developer ADOX Adotech IV.
The results in comparison have always been the same:
The by far best results are always delivered by the dedicated Adotech IV developer: Best characteristic curve, best tonality, best detail rendition.
The results with standard developers cannot compete.

Best regards,
Henning

Eventually I will give Adotech IV a shot. It's pretty pricey up here... over $40 once tax and shipping are added. Do you know if rotary is okay with this developer, as I use only sheet film? Thanks!

 

[Henning Serger]

Eventually I will give Adotech IV a shot. It's pretty pricey up here... over $40 once tax and shipping are added. Do you know if rotary is okay with this developer, as I use only sheet film? Thanks!

Hello Andrew,

in the data sheet only standard agitation is recommended with 1 inversion per minute for the lower speeds, and 1 inversion all two minutes for the higher speeds. By this little inversion you get a good characteristic curve in the highlights.
I assume in rotary processing with permanent agitation you will get too dense highlights. But that is so far only an assumption by me, because I've done my processing due to the data sheet with normal hand development and 1x inversion per minute (or 1x / 2 minutes). And not in rotary processing.
But as I use a JOBO CPE-3 for my color and BW reversal films, I may just do some tests with rotation in the future to see how well it works..........

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hello Andrew,

in the data sheet only standard agitation is recommended with 1 inversion per minute for the lower speeds, and 1 inversion all two minutes for the higher speeds. By this little inversion you get a good characteristic curve in the highlights.
I assume in rotary processing with permanent agitation you will get too dense highlights. But that is so far only an assumption by me, because I've done my processing due to the data sheet with normal hand development and 1x inversion per minute (or 1x / 2 minutes). And not in rotary processing.
But as I use a JOBO CPE-3 for my color and BW reversal films, I may just do some tests with rotation in the future to see how well it works..........

Best regards,
Henning

Hi Henning,
Thanks for that information. I just bit the bullet and ordered two bottles. Cheers!