ADOX CMS 20, any ideas?

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Mar 26, 2007

I got 3 rolls of this when J&C moved, and shot 2 rolls of it at the start of the year...then I realised I had really no idea how to process it, and left the third roll for later use.
The odd thing about it though is the rolls are labeled "ADOX ORTHO 25", with an ISO of 25. But when I peel off the label, there's another underneath marked "ADOX CHS 20". Hm, well that's thrown me off a bit.
I rated the two rolls at 25ISO when I shot them, but the only developer I have on hand is Xtol. Any ideas, will I have to find a more specialised developer?

ath · Mar 26, 2007

If it ist really CMS20 then 25 ASA will be far too high. Adox says 20ASA with Adotech in their datasheet, but my experience is, set your meter to 12 ASA or less. I get approx. 3 stops of shadows until the density drops to 0.1.
Other developers than the special ones for this film (Adotech and Orthopan UR) are said to give even lower sensitivity.

The details seen in the neg and the print (30*40cm) are spectacular.

Fotohuis · Mar 26, 2007

http://www.spur-photo.com/dat_ort_ure.pdf

Standard around iso 16.

You need this special type of developer to get the right density negatives.
In fact it's micro orthochromatic film.

Best regards,

Robert

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Mar 26, 2007

Alex, Adox ORTHO, CMS and CHS are three different films.

ORTHO -- you guessed it, standard ortho film on a PET base, EI around 25, develop in any dilute standard developer for continous tone. Can be developed to a higher contrast.

CHS -- It's Efke 25, an orthopan film that takes any normal developer.

CMS -- Ultra-high resolution film, needs a very low contrast developer to give continuous tone, because it's a microfilm emulsion. Adotech developer is the one tailored for it, but some people have used other low contrast formulations. EI around 16. Resolution will blow you away.

In your case, I suspect that old CHS canisters were recycled to load ORTHO film.

Try EI 25, Rodinal 1+100 for 11 minutes, agitation every minute. Then after it's developped, look at the base. If it is crystal clear, and if you can't tear it even with a strong pull, it's PET (ORTHO or CMS). If it's a bit gray, and you can tear it, it's acetate (CHS/Efke).

If you get printable negatives, then it's probably ORTHO. CMS really needs its special developer. AFAIK, CMS has edge markings, so that way you will know for sure.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Mar 27, 2007

Thanks for the responses, it seemed like they were entirely different films. The Ortho 25 label has a note at the bottom that says, "Achtung signierung CMS 20". I translated this to mean something like, "Attention Mark CMS 20". Bad web translation, but at least it acknowledges the CMS 20 label underneath?
I might hedge my bets and try to develop one roll at 6 minutes in Xtol stock (same time as for ADOX 25, and it's the only developer I have), and check it under a safe light. If I get nothing, I'll know what film I have.

ath · Mar 27, 2007

Fleath said:
Thanks for the responses, it seemed like they were entirely different films. The Ortho 25 label has a note at the bottom that says, "Achtung signierung CMS 20". I translated this to mean something like, "Attention Mark CMS 20". Bad web translation, but at least it acknowledges the CMS 20 label underneath?
I might hedge my bets and try to develop one roll at 6 minutes in Xtol stock (same time as for ADOX 25, and it's the only developer I have), and check it under a safe light. If I get nothing, I'll know what film I have.

Well, what did you order? Ortho 25 or CMS?

Roger Hicks · Mar 27, 2007

Dear Alex,

Consider the possibility that they had some ready-labelled CHS20 cassettes and used them (re-labelled) for Ortho 25....

Cheers,

R.

AgX · Apr 6, 2007

Dear Fleath

The Adox CMS 20 is obviously a rebranded SPUR Orthopan UR (which itself is rather a film/developer combination of a microfilm of unknown manufacturer and SPUR’s specially designed developer making it apt for pictoral photography).
"Achtung signierung CMS 20" most probably means `Attention edge-markings CMS 20´.
I haven’t tried the Orthopan UR yet. But most probably as a microfilm it is cut to perforated 35mm at the manufacturer. But perhaps there or somewhere else an edgemarking is exposed on for Photoimpex (whose owner holds the Adox brand name), and an Efke 25 got the marking instead…

What came out of the development?

Petzi · Apr 6, 2007

Fleath said:
Thanks for the responses, it seemed like they were entirely different films. The Ortho 25 label has a note at the bottom that says, "Achtung signierung CMS 20". I translated this to mean something like, "Attention Mark CMS 20". Bad web translation, but at least it acknowledges the CMS 20 label underneath?
I might hedge my bets and try to develop one roll at 6 minutes in Xtol stock (same time as for ADOX 25, and it's the only developer I have), and check it under a safe light. If I get nothing, I'll know what film I have.

I believe that this is actually Ortho 25, which was accidentially labeled as CMS 20 initially. After they found that out, they relabeled the film to Ortho 25. They also put a remark on it, that the film is marked as CMS 20, so after you processed it, you will see CMS 20 on the side, though it actually Ortho 25. A manufacturing mishap apparently.

ath · Apr 6, 2007

AgX said:
Dear Fleath

The Adox CMS 20 is obviously a rebranded SPUR Orthopan UR (which itself is rather a film/developer combination of a microfilm of unknown manufacturer and SPUR’s specially designed developer making it apt for pictoral photography).

Dear AgX,
My impression is, that its a kind of joint vention between Fotoimpex (brand Adox) and Heribert Schain (brand SPUR) and not rebranding. Both films appear identical, even the edge markings have the same style and (batch?) number, just in one case stated "Orthopan UR" in the other "CMS 20".
The film itself was coated by Agfa Gevaert in Belgium (not the defunct Agfa Photo). You can read my review here: http://phototec.de/phorum/read.php?3,160319 (in German).

sepiareverb · Apr 6, 2007

You could do a clip test so as to save some of the images if you guess wrong. I KNOW I'd guess wrong.

AgX · Apr 6, 2007

Dear ath

With rebranding I meant that Mr. Schain got via Fotoimpex access to markets his own small company is less likely easy to reach at; thus a win-win situation. To my understanding this is typical of rebranding.
I’m sorry that some sort of defining problem came up.

Thanks for hinting at that very thread, it was still new to me. Though I’m not sure about origin of the film. Mr. Schain has got three microfilms in offer. Two of them he states as Kodak Imagelink resp. Agfa Copex Pan Rapid. So why schouldn’t he state the third one as another film out of the Copex Range with higher resolution and orthopan instead of pan sensitation? (Agfa doesn’t offer datasheets for the Copex films.) Perhaps it is from a third manufacturer he doesn’t want to disclose, or from some Agfa batch wich is not on general offer. This guessing will leave us on thin ice anyway.

MFFF · May 30, 2007

Hi, I'd like to know if is possible to dilute Adotech a little, so that I would get 300ml instead of the 250ml/film. I have two different tanks, but they both need more than 250ml of developer per film (Adox CMS 20). I bought the pack with 10 rolls of film and 2 bottles of Adotech and I really would like to develop all 10 instead of 8! (The is a dilution of 300ml in the Adotech tech-sheet is only for 8 films...)

How much should I compensate with time or temperature to get get good results? Has anyone tried this? I have shot my first CMS 20 and it's waiting in the fridge...

AgX · May 30, 2007

MFFF,

On the presumption that the SPUR Nanospeed UR developer is the same as you got under the Adox brand I translated what is said about this developer in the German Spur Orthopan UR datasheet.

300ml working solution made by taking concentrate from a 50ml flask

1. round 12ml concentrate (fill up concentrate flask with 12ml water to keep air off)
2. ..“…...16ml……...“……………….………...“..………........……....16ml……..“……………..
3. ..”…...23ml……...“……………….………...”…………........…......23ml……..”…………….
4. ..“…...43ml……...“………….…(discard developer solution after use)

In case you keep the diluted concentrate more than a month, prolonge the the developing tiome of the forth round by 10%.

ADOX Fotoimpex · May 30, 2007

Sorry that I missed this thread for so long.
In case any other end user has any problems with products purchased from JandC or any other of our retailers, please feel free to send us and email to info@fotoimpex.de.
We understand english, french and german.

ADOTECH: we are in the process of translating the adotech datasheet into english.
The German version can be found here: http://www.adox.eu/Datenblatt_ADOX_CMS20.pdf
The standard dilution is 1+24. If you want to use 300ml of developer you need to take 12ml of developer. The dilution must not be increased- otherwise the speed achieved will be less.

Films: We had a problem in the manufacturing of the ADOX ORTHO films.
They are accidentally signated CMS 20 and labeled CMS 20 UNDER the ORTHO label which also mentions this fact. The CMS films however do NOT have any ORTHO label or warning sentence because this film was made in the run before when the people in the confectioning did not even know about the ORTHO.

So the films you seem to have must be ORTHO films.

The last way of finding out would be to look at the film tip´s colour after pulling out a few mm of fresh film.
The CMS is rather transparent and grey brown in colour whereas the ORTHO has a very reddish brown tone and an almost pink emulsion side.

The developing information for the ORTHO films can be found here:
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Filme/ORT_Filme/page54/page54.html

Best regards,

Mirko

MFFF · May 30, 2007

AgX said:
MFFF,

On the presumption that the SPUR Nonoaspeed UR developer is the same as you got under the Addox brand I translated what is said about this developer in the German Spur Orthopan UR datasheet.

300ml working solution made by taking concentrate from a 50ml flask

1. round 12ml concentrate (fill up concentrate flask with 12ml water to keep air off)
2. .....16ml.....................16ml....
3. .....23ml.....................23ml...
4. .....43ml....(discard developer solution after use)

In case you keep the diluted concentrate more than a month, prolonge the the developing tiome of the forth round by 10%.

Thanks, but that is just what I ment... You can make only 4 films with that solution. I have 2 bottles and 10 rolls. So I would need more diluted developer for 5?

ADOX Fotoimpex · May 30, 2007

..one more thing.

Yes, we are working together with Heribert Schain on the ADOTECH developer and we enjoy this cooperation as much as he enjoys working with ADOX but calling the CMS film a "relabeled" Spur film is really a bit odd.

AgX · May 30, 2007

odd...

Dear Mr Böddecker,

As this was directed at me:

My presumption was perhaps odd from your perspective, but I assume well reasoned as Mr Schain and his company had been working on processes for microfilms to be used pictorially before that very one and described in detail the problems inherent to this.
With two seemingly similar systems on the market under different brands of course irritation will arise.

Furthermore, I’m on this thread trying to help a client of yours…

AgX · May 30, 2007

2 x 5 runs...

Sorry MFFF,

I did not really get your point, I only saw your request for information on this 300ml working solution.
As I posted, Mr Schain only advises four runs for those 300ml.

With that 250ml you indeed would yield 5 runs.

An outcome could be, if you would use this film on a regular basis, to buy two bundles plus one extra single bottle of developer concentrate.

MFFF · May 30, 2007

Thanks everyone! Yes, I think I'll do it by the book with those 8 films. Actually I just got this film from Fotoimpex;-) All my developing tanks stated that they need 290 - 325 ml /film, so I'll just have to make a mental note for myself so I remember to order more Adotech next time!

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