ADOX CHS II 100 14x17 Very Bad Experience

Jurgen Estanislao · Apr 19, 2023

Hi folks,

Sharing my really bad experience with Adox CHS II 100 14x17 sheet film.

I purchased three packs from FotoImpex late last year and started using them these past weeks.

From the packs I noticed several alarming issues during film loading, first up, I noticed that the paper sheets inside left some powdery residue on the negatives and on my finger tips. These are black paper sheets that kept the negatives apart from each other.

What's worse is that within the packs, most of the negatives didn't have notches! Which made it difficult to know of course which orientation you should be placing the sheets inside your film holders.

This is 14x17 ULF film, and it's not cheap, more so coming from a supposedly reputable brand!

Now for those that had notches, I loaded them and went on a long planned location shoot for two days, and alas, I didn't expect things to get any worse, all the negatives I shot turned out blank.

Now upon contacting FotoImpex, I was informed that this format was discontinued by Adox—I wouldn't be surprised why.

Never again—I do not recommend purchasing from Adox.

Jurgen

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 19, 2023

I shoot 14x17, but have only used XRAY. I would like to use a pan film for it but the prices are astronomical! That's really pathetic, actually. Are they going to at least send you something to at least compensate you? If not, I would find it difficult to do business with them again...

Jurgen Estanislao · Apr 19, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
I shoot 14x17, but have only used XRAY. I would like to use a pan film for it but the prices are astronomical! That's really pathetic, actually. Are they going to at least send you something to at least compensate you? If not, I would find it difficult to do business with them again...

I messages FotoImpex about it but they just mentioned that they are discontinued. I left Adox a message via Instagram but they have yet to reply.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 19, 2023

If you don't hear back from Adox, I would keep hammering them with emails.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 19, 2023

Dear Jurgen, we are sorry that you had a negative experience with our film, and we would like to resolve this case, as it is quite unusual. We also went to instagram, and have seen your message, which was sent 12 hours ago. We apologize for not replying earlier, as we first have to investigate such issues with the production team, and the reply might take up to two working days. Be assured, this matter is taken seriously.
What should be noted first, is that we did not stop manufacturing 11x14 film in general. There might have been a misunderstanding in the communication. It is true, however, that we cannot remanufacture this specific CHS 100 II film in this size for you, because the raw material was sourced from a company that cannot supply it anymore.

As for the blank negative, It is pretty much impossible that, after correct exposure, the film turned out transparent. We cut a lot of different formats from the same roll, which has the same emulsion from the same coating, and we always do quality control of each "cutting" for light leaks, dust etc. We would know if something was wrong with the emulsion itself.
How the film could turn out blank, is if it was inserted the wrong side into the holder. Which is easy to happen if the film is missing the notches. On one of the pictures of the negatives you sent on instagram, there seems to be a very faint image, which could be an indicator of this exact issue.

Of course, having missing notches on the film is not acceptable. We are using vintage equipment for film production, which does, unfortunately, produce mistakes in very rare cases, especially with larger formats. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

We would like to offer you three solutions:

1) You send back the films, and we reimburse you the purchasing price and the shipping costs
2) You send back the films, and we re-notch them for you, of course reimbursing the shipping costs
3) If the pack is partially notched, you can mark the side of the notch on your box, and use the film as it is. All the emulsion-coated sides are always facing one way. In the instagram messages, you mentioned that you used the notched sheets. Might there be an error in the loading? If you try loading the opposite way from which you did it before, quite surely the film will work. We will, of course, reimburse/give credit on future purchases for the lost sheets.

Please contact us through the same fotoimpex email you used in the previous communication, and we will be happy to proceed with any of the three options.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 19, 2023

Way to step up Adox!

Hassasin · Apr 19, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Way to step up Adox!

If Adox is admitting a mistake, why don't they offer new box of film? Seems like a lot of hoops for customer to go through, and long wait time to boot. Stand behind your product, own mistakes, replace as soon as possible when problem comes up. I was not expecting these 3 "solutions" from Adox. Unless there is still a suspicion that nothing wrong happened at manufacturing end.

Also, how a machine can be used for notching, knowing all along it makes "mistakes". Without resorting to hand sorting of notch-no-notch sheets, so only notched ones get boxed up for sale, this is hardly acceptable.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 19, 2023

Hassasin said:
If Adox is admitting a mistake, why don't they offer new box of film? Seems like a lot of hoops for customer to go through, and long wait time to boot. Stand behind your product, own mistakes, replace as soon as possible when problem comes up. I was not expecting these 3 "solutions" from Adox. Unless there is still a suspicion that nothing wrong happened at manufacturing end.

Also, how a machine can be used for notching, knowing all along it makes "mistakes". Without resorting to hand sorting of notch-no-notch sheets, so only notched ones get boxed up for sale, this is hardly acceptable.

Because they no longer offer that format.

Hassasin · Apr 19, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Because they no longer offer that format.

They can offer film, unless op does not use any other format. By offering film I do not mean one for one exchange either. Especially since now we all know their LF sheets are not guaranteed to be all good, regardless of format. This is not good.

Further, I don’t appreciate remedies that involve bad QC, sold as new, then when it turns out useless it’s just “we give you money back”. The whole end to end event was money, time to deliver, time to process, then frustration in communicating something that was not of user’s making … this all adds up, it is not one for one deal any more.

I only have 4x5 and 6x9 from Adox, so far so good. But this exchange is nothing I would write home about.

btaylor · Apr 19, 2023

Hassasin said:
Further, I don’t appreciate remedies that involve bad QC, sold as new, then when it turns out useless it’s just “we give you money back”. The whole end to end event was money, time to deliver, time to process, then frustration in communicating something that was not of user’s making … this all adds up, it is not one for one deal any more.

I agree, replacement of the film or a refund do not fully compensate. If that is something you need you should buy insurance for your photo shoot to make you whole for what could be the considerable cost of production. For the 60 years I’ve been shooting film the manufacturer’s and lab guarantee is: if there is a defect in the product or lab service you are entitled to a replacement film, or the cost of the original product or service. That’s why production companies buy insurance policies that will cover the expenses outside of the “one for one deal.” This insurance isn’t practical for hobbyists like us and we just have to suck it up.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 19, 2023

I think what they offered is reasonable.

brbo · Apr 19, 2023

Hassasin said:
If Adox is admitting a mistake, why don't they offer new box of film?

You probably missed the fact that they don't have that exact film in that format anymore.

warden · Apr 19, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
I think what they offered is reasonable.

Ditto. And if the OP disagrees I bet Adox will be happy to listen to other proposals from the OP as well. Adox have been responsive to the OP, replying five hours after the OP brought the issue to the forum with three potential solutions. It's clear they want a happy customer. But if it's not possible to make this customer happy at least solution # 1 gets them their money back.

Sirius Glass · Apr 19, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Way to step up Adox!

Jurgen Estanislao · Apr 19, 2023

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Dear Jurgen, we are sorry that you had a negative experience with our film, and we would like to resolve this case, as it is quite unusual. We also went to instagram, and have seen your message, which was sent 12 hours ago. We apologize for not replying earlier, as we first have to investigate such issues with the production team, and the reply might take up to two working days. Be assured, this matter is taken seriously.
What should be noted first, is that we did not stop manufacturing 11x14 film in general. There might have been a misunderstanding in the communication. It is true, however, that we cannot remanufacture this specific CHS 100 II film in this size for you, because the raw material was sourced from a company that cannot supply it anymore.

As for the blank negative, It is pretty much impossible that, after correct exposure, the film turned out transparent. We cut a lot of different formats from the same roll, which has the same emulsion from the same coating, and we always do quality control of each "cutting" for light leaks, dust etc. We would know if something was wrong with the emulsion itself.
How the film could turn out blank, is if it was inserted the wrong side into the holder. Which is easy to happen if the film is missing the notches. On one of the pictures of the negatives you sent on instagram, there seems to be a very faint image, which could be an indicator of this exact issue.

Of course, having missing notches on the film is not acceptable. We are using vintage equipment for film production, which does, unfortunately, produce mistakes in very rare cases, especially with larger formats. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

We would like to offer you three solutions:

1) You send back the films, and we reimburse you the purchasing price and the shipping costs
2) You send back the films, and we re-notch them for you, of course reimbursing the shipping costs
3) If the pack is partially notched, you can mark the side of the notch on your box, and use the film as it is. All the emulsion-coated sides are always facing one way. In the instagram messages, you mentioned that you used the notched sheets. Might there be an error in the loading? If you try loading the opposite way from which you did it before, quite surely the film will work. We will, of course, reimburse/give credit on future purchases for the lost sheets.

Please contact us through the same fotoimpex email you used in the previous communication, and we will be happy to proceed with any of the three options.

It's 14x17 sheet film, not 11x14.

I always double check film before loading them on holders and before putting them in drums for developing and the negatives were loaded properly.

I do appreciate you responding, and thank you for providing options, do understand though the frustration and time + effort wasted especially to those who were contracted to be part of the project—this was a two-day boudoir session on location.

Can you please send me your direct email contact as I haven't gotten a new reply on the email thread prior.

brbo · Apr 20, 2023

Should be pretty easy to test if your film really doesn't register no light at all.

Btw, what is a small area of density in the lower right corner in the shot of your supposedly properly exposed and developed sheet?

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 20, 2023

Hassasin said:
If Adox is admitting a mistake, why don't they offer new box of film? Seems like a lot of hoops for customer to go through, and long wait time to boot. Stand behind your product, own mistakes, replace as soon as possible when problem comes up. I was not expecting these 3 "solutions" from Adox. Unless there is still a suspicion that nothing wrong happened at manufacturing end.

Also, how a machine can be used for notching, knowing all along it makes "mistakes". Without resorting to hand sorting of notch-no-notch sheets, so only notched ones get boxed up for sale, this is hardly acceptable.

We have two claims here, one of which (film has no emulsion) is technically next to impossible from a manufacturing standpoint. If this film was inserted into the negative holders the other way from like it was inserted before, it would expose. The other (film has bad notches) is technically imaginable, but has never been reported to us so far. This is the first case, and we suspect it might be because of the extra-large format and the machine limitations.
We offer solutions in order to help the customer keep shooting this rare format, and investigate and improve on our end.
This is a standard procedure among all photo manufacturers, to ask for the claimed product to be sent back. We cannot investigate, improve or give suggestions to the customer without having the product in our hands.

Jurgen Estanislao · Apr 20, 2023

brbo said:
Should be pretty easy to test if your film really doesn't register no light at all.

Btw, what is a small area of density in the lower right corner in the shot of your supposedly properly exposed and developed sheet?

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
We have two claims here, one of which (film has no emulsion) is technically next to impossible from a manufacturing standpoint. If this film was inserted into the negative holders the other way from like it was inserted before, it would expose. The other (film has bad notches) is technically imaginable, but has never been reported to us so far. This is the first case, and we suspect it might be because of the extra-large format and the machine limitations.
We offer solutions in order to help the customer keep shooting this rare format, and investigate and improve on our end.
This is a standard procedure among all photo manufacturers, to ask for the claimed product to be sent back. We cannot investigate, improve or give suggestions to the customer without having the product in our hands.

Hello, thanks for the response–just to clarify, I purchased three packs of 14x17 Adox, and it's just one pack that seems to be problematic, I have developed a sheet from another pack during the same shoot and it was okay.

As for the emulsion, my pre-wash during development suggests that there is. My assumption here is that since this particular pack had some sheets with notches, and most without, might it be possible that the notches were placed erroneously, which means, even if I loaded correctly, the emulsion side was facing the other way.

I do appreciate you reaching out, but since you don't make this size anymore, I can't seem to imagine what's the most economical way to resolve, the film is nice don't get me wrong and I like it, but I can't seem to wrap my head around the QC issue for this particular pack.

Jurgen Estanislao · Apr 20, 2023

Will be discussing with Adox over at social media to find solutions. Thank you!

brbo · Apr 20, 2023

But, you need to invest less than 5min of your time to check if there is really no light sensitive emulsion on the film, right?

What am I missing?

mshchem · Apr 20, 2023

Adox proposed resolution seems quite reasonable and generous.

mshchem · Apr 20, 2023

I have IR goggles, the emulsion side is a blazing white under IR. Easy to identify, no notches would be impossible for me to keep straight without the goggles.

Jurgen Estanislao · Apr 20, 2023

brbo said:
But, you need to invest less than 5min of your time to check if there is really no light sensitive emulsion on the film, right?

What am I missing?

There is light sensitive emulsion for sure, as suggested in my pre-wash before development—the assumption by me and the team from Adox is that the suspect pack might have had misplaced notches, as most of the sheet didn't have notches to begin with—basically, even if I loaded the film as it should, the emulsion side was still facing the other way.

brbo · Apr 20, 2023

Jurgen Estanislao said:
There is light sensitive emulsion for sure, as suggested in my pre-wash before development—the assumption by me and the team from Adox is that the suspect pack might have had misplaced notches, as most of the sheet didn't have notches to begin with—basically, even if I loaded the film as it should, the emulsion side was still facing the other way.

Even if you loaded the film incorrectly because there were no notches, how is it possible that absolutely no light made it through the base to the emulsion?!

That's why I'm asking what am I missing? Does this film have a 100% opaque layer under the emulsion that would prevent ANY exposure when shot through the base?

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 20, 2023

brbo said:
Even if you loaded the film incorrectly because there were no notches, how is it possible that absolutely no light made it through the base to the emulsion?!

That's why I'm asking what am I missing? Does this film have a 100% opaque layer under the emulsion that would prevent ANY exposure when shot through the base?

The antihalo is pretty strong, yes. This is not a greybase 35mm material. We apply an antistatic/ah on the back (see technical datasheet). You can´t really shoot through there.

ADOX CHS II 100 14x17 Very Bad Experience

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