Adjusting a print for selenium toning

[mistercody]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum, and I have been searching for old threads that address this, but cannot seem to find many answers. Also, there is just so much stuff on here (wonderful), and so if there is an existing post, feel free to post a link to it.

I have rather limited time in a public darkroom until I can set up my own. I basically only have 5 hours a week on a single evening. I am not a master printer yet, so I often struggle to get a print just right and don't walk out with a usable print. I have hard enough of a time adjusting for dry down, and I now plan to start trying selenium toning. I have sepia toned in the past and was able to get a perfect print with adjusting the print to be a tad darker. With selenium, and the added contrast and deepening of shadows, I am wondering how much to adjust a print for this effect. Should I print a little lighter? How much? Flatter? How much?

I am using different papers such as Ilford MGIV (which I hear doesn't change much), but I also have some Ilford MGWT that I've never used, and some Adox MCC 110 that I plan to use for my exhibition prints. I don't want to waste too much paper and time in getting a good print, and then ruining it during toning, so any little tips are greatly appreciated. I have some KRST as well as Ilford Harman selenium toner. I've never touched them, so this is all new. I have Tim Rudman's toning book and he doesn't seem to think any print modification is that necessary. If not, just say so and I will just print as normal. But I'd think that if I got a shadow just a way I liked it in a normal print, that the selenium might drown it out.... would that happen?

Thanks for any answers. I am looking forward to doing my first selenium tests.

Cody

 

[Vlad Soare]

It depends on whether you want to tone to completion (that is, until the image turns visibly brown), or just to enhance the maximum density.
In my experience (which I must say is pretty limited), selenium doesn't darken all shadows, but just the deepest of the deepest blacks. If you have areas of maximum black in the picture, they will get a tiny bit darker (don't expect anything spectacular - the change is barely noticeable). Areas that are lighter than maximum black remain unaffected. If you continue toning past this point, the effect reverses as the shadows start getting brown.

If you want just a bit of oomph in the deepest shadows, then I suggest printing as usual and not worrying about any compensation. If you want to tone to completion, then you may or may not need to print a little darker, depending on the image, and depending on how you like the resulting brown shadows. Personally, I'd print normally. I find that the lowered shadow density inherent in colored prints doesn't bother me.

I suggest you do a simple test. With no negative in the enlarger, expose a sheet of paper in one second increments. Make sure you go up to maximum black, I mean until you see no difference in two adjacent steps. If you can see the last step clearly distinguishable from the previous one, then open the aperture one stop further (or lower the enlarger head) and start over. You should get a range of densities ranging from paper white to the maximum black the paper is capable of.
Now cut this paper lengthwise in two and tone one of them in selenium. Compare them when dry. This will give you a good idea of what to expect from selenium.
You could also cut the paper in several pieces and tone each one for a different amount of time.

 

[Marco B]

A couple of minor tips:

- As a guide, printing half a grade lower contrast, and maybe 10% off the printing time, might be of help to prevent blocking up shadows.
- Selenium toning is slow, for full toning at 18-20 degrees Celcius, it can take up to 15-20 minutes for full toning. However, a clear contrast and minor color shift will take place even after very short times in the toner. However, don't expect real protection from that!
- Combination toning with sepia toning can be especially beautiful. I mostly prefer a very mild / short sepia toning in combo with selenium instead of straight selenium. Be aware though that longer sepia toning will quickly lead to very warm brown tones in combination with selenium. Can be very beautiful too, but if you want to have cold toned and very dark purple / blue black shadows, only very short (e.g. 10-30 seconds) dips in the sepia toner bleach (I am assuming here you use a two bath bleach / redevelop sepia toner here) will maintain the cold tones.
- Best split tone combination tonings of sepia / selenium are on cold tone papers like Ilford MGIV.
- Be aware that the color of the toned prints is highly depended on the paper type. Ilford MGIV seems to be one of the papers showing the least color shift, while some other papers like Ilford MGIV Warmtone, can have a very pronounced shift to purple / blue blacks.

From my experience:

* Ilford MGIV: very dark blueish to slightly purple black with selenium alone, possibility for split tones when combined with very mild sepia toning, otherwise a dark reddish brown.
* Ilford MGIV Warmtone: pronounced purplish black selenium toning alone, in combination with even a mild sepia toning a very warm orange / red brown.
* Kentmere Fineprint VC: a bit like Ilford MGIV Warmtone, slightly less pronounced colors though, and not going as "orange" as Ilford MGIV Warmtone sometimes does.

- Developer can also play a role, although I haven't yet been really able to experiment with it. Most likely though, warmtone developers will give you more of the pronounced color shifts as in Ilford MGIV Warmtone paper, while a cold tone developer might be better for getting cool tones and getting nice split tones with warm highlights and cold shadows when combining sepia and selenium.

Here is a nice example of the latter I just posted in the galleries:

 

[fschifano]

Get a transmission step wedge from Stouffer. I prefer the one that is incremented in 1/3 step intervals. Make two identical contact sheets using the step wedge making sure that there are at least some pure white and pure black wedges at either end of the scale. Tone one and leave the other as it. Let them dry, then compare. You'll know exactly what you need to do after you see them side by side.

 

[mistercody]

I am loving this forum. Thanks for the thorough replies. They are very helpful.

Cody

 

[brian steinberger]

Get a transmission step wedge from Stouffer. I prefer the one that is incremented in 1/3 step intervals. Make two identical contact sheets using the step wedge making sure that there are at least some pure white and pure black wedges at either end of the scale. Tone one and leave the other as it. Let them dry, then compare. You'll know exactly what you need to do after you see them side by side.

This is a great idea! Different papers will lose different amounts of shadow detail in selenium. I mostly use Ilford Warmtone and Oriental VC. The MGWT will lose detail in the shadows more than the Oriental in my experience. The only real way to learn is to experiment. The step wedge idea is great, you could also run this test with two prints, both with adequate shadow detail. Tone one and compare.

 

[fschifano]

This is a great idea! Different papers will lose different amounts of shadow detail in selenium. I mostly use Ilford Warmtone and Oriental VC. The MGWT will lose detail in the shadows more than the Oriental in my experience. The only real way to learn is to experiment. The step wedge idea is great, you could also run this test with two prints, both with adequate shadow detail. Tone one and compare.

Thanks. The reason I recommend the step wedge is because it can be used for other tests too. You can use it to determine how much exposure compensation is needed when you change VC filters. It can tell you exactly how many stops of dynamic range your paper is capable of delivering, and the step wedge is exactly the same density every time, so there's no guessing about the negative. I print a test strip using each VC filter or color head setting with each new batch of paper. Tells me exactly what I need to know with no guessing. And once you know how that batch of paper responds, getting the results you want is much more efficient.

 

[brian steinberger]

Frank, so if you found from your step wedge that selenium toning is eating away 1/3rd of a stop in the dark end, how do you correct for this? Adjusting exposure is the answer for dry-down, but not shadows. Do you adjust the contrast?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

The reason I recommend the step wedge is because it can be used for other tests too.

Absolutely agree.

Used mine to calibrate a VCL4500 variable contrast light source to precise ISO full and half contrast grades. If performing Frank's test then showed a half-grade increase in overall contrast with selenium toning, I have the tools to make the required change. (Or even interpolating down to quarter grades if need be, although realistically my eyes are not that good.)

Ken

 

[fschifano]

First of all, I doubt that you see that much of a change in the shadows. If anything, the darkest areas might gain a little density, but not that much. If indeed you find that you're loosing shadow density, then you could just add a little more exposure by burning those areas in a little bit, or even by adding just a little bit more exposure to the whole print. Have you had this situation occur?

 

[clayne]

First of all, I doubt that you see that much of a change in the shadows. If anything, the darkest areas might gain a little density, but not that much. If indeed you find that you're loosing shadow density, then you could just add a little more exposure by burning those areas in a little bit, or even by adding just a little bit more exposure to the whole print. Have you had this situation occur?

Selenium toning is noticeable - one can watch with their own eyes as the print visually deepens in the shadows. The main issue the OP is asking about is too much overall darkening and contrast shift as a result of printing for a desired target and then selenium toning. The correct way is to print/develop slightly softer - knowing that Se toner will affect contrast and perceived darkness.

 

[archer]

I believe that how much you alter print density for selenium toning, greatly depends on the paper one chooses to use and under what conditions the print will be viewed. From my personal experience, I find that many of the warm tone papers currently available, do require a slight reduction in exposure when toning and the biggest determinant is the paper surface. Of course, dry down should always be considered very important, as each paper responds quit differently in that regard. Mounting is another consideration of importance as some papers tend to react greatly to the heat of dry mounting by becoming slightly less brilliant in the highlights. Only personal experience with your materials can inform your decision, as no two photographers work exactly the same way, nor do they share the same vision.
Denise Libby

 

[BOBBYCTKR]

Never done split toning. Thinking of doing it . Which brand is reccomended to go with KRST and Ilfor MGIV FB paper ?

 

[Marco B]

Never done split toning. Thinking of doing it . Which brand is reccomended to go with KRST and Ilfor MGIV FB paper ?

"Which brand"? :confused: I am afraid I do not understand your question. You refer specifically to the Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner and Ilford MGIV FB, so these brands are fixed. Do you mean "What sepia toner do you recommend to go with KRST and Ilford MGIV to get good split tones?"

Personally, I don't think it will make a lot of difference what brand of sepia toner you choose. The only major difference between sepia toners is the two bath bleach / redevelop toners using a ferricyanide bleach and thiourea or sulphide redeveloper, and single bath polysulphide toners.

The latter toners, that only require one toning bath, seem to give darker red tones than bleach / redeveloper toners.

However, as I wrote in my previous post in this thread, in my experience, the order in which you apply the toner (e.g. sepia first, selenium second or the other way around), and the exact toning time in each toner, is far more important in determining whether you will get a true split tone (cold shadows, warm highlights), or not.

Unfortunately, each paper is different, so I can not give you a general recommendation here for the order of toners to apply, and timing. You will have to experiment with your paper.