Adding 0.25 gram Phenidone to ID11

Lachlan Young · May 23, 2006

What sort of effect could I expect from adding 0.25 g of Phenidone dissolved in a little isopropyl alchohol to 1 litre of ID11 stock solution? The resulting combination would be used at 1:1 dilution.

All help much appreciated,

Lachlan

david b · May 23, 2006

What sort of effect do you think you will get?

Lachlan Young · May 23, 2006

david b said:
What sort of effect do you think you will get?

I am guessing I will get some sort of speed increase...what I would like to know is whether anyone has any experience with this trick.

Thanks,

Lachlan

Gerald Koch · May 23, 2006

Adding Phenidone to just any developer does not necessarily mean that you will produce a developer that will increase film speed. Phenidone produces a speed increase only when used in certain low pH formulations such as Microphen. It may produce an increase in the case of ID-11 since it is a low pH developer. Mason in Photographic Processing Chemistry discusses this. The point I'm making is that Phenidone does not magically increase film speed.

Lachlan Young · May 23, 2006

Gerald Koch said:
Adding Phenidone to just any developer does not necessarily mean that you will produce a developer that will increase film speed. Phenidone produces a speed increase only when used in certain low pH formulations such as Microphen. It may produce an increase in the case of ID-11 since it is a low pH developer. Mason in Photographic Processing Chemistry discusses this. The point I'm making is that Phenidone does not magically increase film speed.

The reason I am asking is because there exists something called 'Crone-C' additive which by all accounts is a solution of Phenidone in Isopropyl Alchohol and I am wondering what its effect would be.

Thanks,

Lachlan

Gerald Koch · May 23, 2006

I have heard the same thing but Chrome additive may not only contain Phenidone but some other ingredients.

You would have to do some experimenting to find the optimum amount of Phenidone to add. Mason contains a graph showing the effect of the Phenidone to hydroquinone ratio on speed. The optimum value for their experimental developer was 1 to 26. Speed decreases as the ratio deviates from this ratio in either direction. The presence of Metol in ID-11 may change things.

jim appleyard · May 23, 2006

On my bottle of Crone C, (don't know what year this is; it was a gift) if says not to be used with HC-110, Microdol-X, D-23, Acufine, Microphen or Promicrol. This may be what Gerald is trying to point out, but I know very little of the product and have never used it.

My guess is that it does adding phenidone to ID-11 would improve speed and shadow detail. Try it out with ID-11 on a test roll.

Gerald Koch · May 23, 2006

jim appleyard said:
On my bottle of Crone C, (don't know what year this is; it was a gift) if says not to be used with HC-110, Microdol-X, D-23, Acufine, Microphen or Promicrol.

HC-110, Acufine, and Microphen all contain Phenidone or a derivative so it makes sense that adding more is not going to do much. D-23 and Promicrol contain no hydroquinone and you really need hydroquinone for Phenidone to work correctly.

My guess is that adding Phenidone will work you just have to find the optimal amount.

Tom Hoskinson · May 23, 2006

Lachlan Young said:
What sort of effect could I expect from adding 0.25 g of Phenidone dissolved in a little isopropyl alchohol to 1 litre of ID11 stock solution? The resulting combination would be used at 1:1 dilution.

All help much appreciated,

Lachlan

Lachlan, compare the formula for D-76 (ID-11):

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

With the formula for Ilford ID-68:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

You will see that these 2 formulae are similar in many respects, but are not identical.

You might make a percentage solution of phenidone dissolved in alcohol and experiment with it.

I'd be inclined to start by developing a test film in straight (undiluted) D-76 and compare the result against an identically exposed test film developed in 76 with .1 gram/liter of Phenidone added.

Then I would probably add small additional amounts of phenidone, trying to find if there was a quantity that made a noticeable difference.

Or, you could simply mix up a liter of Ilford ID-68.

dancqu · May 23, 2006

Lachlan Young said:
What sort of effect could I expect from adding 0.25 g
of Phenidone ... to 1 litre of ID11 stock solution?

Taken, ID11 = D-76. ID11 + 0.25 gram phenidone =
Crawley's FX-4. Very nearly anyway. ID11 has 1/2
gram more metol, 1/2 gram less borax and is shy
1 gram of bromide.

FX-4, claimed to be Acufine similar. Dan

gainer · May 23, 2006

You might get a better result by working on the other half of the developing agents and adding a little sodium or potassium ascorbate.
I read long ago that phenidone and metol are antagonistic under some condidions. It was noticed at Kodak that the Xtol combination gives some speed increase. That would be one of the branches of the phenidone tree with either ascorbate or isoascorbate.
The last time I tried mixing phenidone and metol was in a print developer, when my MQ developer was getting weak and I decided to throw in a little phenidone rather than mix fresh. It killed it the rest of the way.

Gerald Koch · May 24, 2006

dancqu said:
FX-4, claimed to be Acufine similar.

Acufine is a proprietary formula but according to the MSDS contains no Metol. While FX-4 and Acufine may produce somewhat similar results they are by no means similar in any other respect.

dancqu · May 24, 2006

Gerald Koch said:
Acufine is a proprietary formula but according to the
MSDS contains no Metol. While FX-4 and Acufine may
produce somewhat similar results they are by no means
similar in any other respect.

Actually I replaced Similar for Substitute as used in
P. Dignan's book of B&W Formula. Worse yet the MSDS
mentions carbonate. The one-shot version, ACU-1,
has even more carbonate. Thanks to Mr. Dignan
there is no need to list phenidone. Dan

Gerald Koch · May 25, 2006

I remember reading an interview with Bauman, the inventor of Acufine, which appeared in one of the 60's photo magazines. In it he related that the Acufine formula had to reworked because the first shipment of cans exploaded on photostore shelves due to the generation of carbon dioxide from the carbonate reacting with one of the other ingredients.

Adding 0.25 gram Phenidone to ID11

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