Adams and HDR

Grif · May 27, 2011

I'm sticking my nose in the Zone system(again), finally with a sheet film camera, and have always enjoyed Ansel Adams photographs. Having read, and looking at his images with the thought in mind,,, I wonder if he took any heat for the HDR look of some of his works? I've seen posts about the connection, just wondering what his peers had to say about the extended brightness range of his images?

ROL · May 27, 2011

How could he have taken "heat" for it? HDR is a fairly recent digital technique, so far as I know. And I've seen digital HDR. His work doesn't look like HDR to me (I'm not a peer) – it is infinitely more refined tonally.

MaximusM3 · May 27, 2011

The simple truth is that Adams was a GREAT printer, knew what he wanted and how to get it out of his negatives. Whether one likes the resulting images or not, is always a matter of taste. I believe that without his truly incredible printing/processing skills, his photography would not have been idolized as much.

ic-racer · May 27, 2011

Grif said:
I wonder if he took any heat for the HDR look of some of his works? I've seen posts about the connection, just wondering what his peers had to say about the extended brightness range of his images?

What is HDR?

Mainecoonmaniac · May 27, 2011

Adams was a great printer. He had materials that were harder to work with like graded papers. Has also a masterful with camera and film too. Looking at his prints is inspirational.

MattKing · May 27, 2011

ic-racer said:
What is HDR?

Assuming you are serious about the question....

Stands for "high dynamic range" imaging. It's very popular in the digital world, but like everything else, is easily overdone.

If you wanted to try something similar with film, you would put a camera on a tripod, lock it down to prevent movement and shoot exactly the same scene with two different sheets of film.

For the first shot, you would choose exposure and development/contrast to favour the shadows (and mid-tones?).

For the second shot, you would choose exposure and development/contrast to favour the highlights (and mid-tones?)

Then you would print the two negatives on to the same sheet of paper, with one used for the shadows (and mid-tones?) and the other for the highlights (and mid-tones?). In order to do this, you need some system to permit registration.

Good for scenes with important detail in both shadows and highlights (think seaside cloudscapes over a pier).

Mustafa Umut Sarac · May 27, 2011

I did not print in traditional way but the automatic machines with 24 step analog control , 100 000 pieces.
I am guessing , but is masking can be opening a hole at the paper and over expose or mask some areas.
Is that is masking ? And I read some posts last year but I am not remembering details , that simulating unsharp masking , how it is done ?

Thank you ,

Umut

tomalophicon · May 27, 2011

When he used to post on flickr, some trolls said his 'captures' were fake and gay, but most people didn't mind them.

2F/2F · May 27, 2011

Digital "HDR" techniques are just another way of doing what photographers have done as long as there has been photography. Keeping a book of various dramatic skies to print into blank white ones from ortho film is just one of many examples of the ways photographers have combated the limitations of their materials to get something closer to what they want. Masking to control contrast is another. Contending with differences between what the eye sees and what our materials render will need to be practiced as long as photography exists, no matter what techniques arise for doing it.

Personally, I don't think Adams' pictures are anything like what the eye sees, however. Their strength is in the fact that they are not, in fact. They are extreme and fantastic (as in "of or pertaining to fantasy") manipulations that get more to the emotional heart of a subject than a purely literal rendition would (i.e. attempting to render exactly what the eye sees).

ic-racer · May 27, 2011

I do know Ansel took a lot of heat for copying the gaussian blur filter in photoshop when he made Lodgpole Pines in 1921. So I'm not surprised he was secretly emulating the look of the great digital masters with his other work.

ic-racer · May 27, 2011

Some new steam locomotives were built in the 1970s and the V2 rocket went in to service in 1944. So I'm not surprised when contemporary youngsters think men went to the moon on a steam powered engine and the first intercontinental railroad was rocket powered. But to think Ansel's work overlapped the digital craze is a little too much for me...

hoffy · May 27, 2011

ic-racer said:
Some new steam locomotives were built in the 1970s and the V2 rocket went in to service in 1944. So I'm not surprised when contemporary youngsters think men went to the moon on a steam powered engine and the first intercontinental railroad was rocket powered. But to think Ansel's work overlapped the digital craze is a little too much for me...

But didn't Adams also say that he was excited about the emerging technology of digital in an Interview in the early 80's?

As much as many are going to shoot me down in flames, I am sure that Adams would have embraced Digital and HDR simply as a tool.

Do I find his images HDR like? The problem when people start comparing HDR to anything else, is they try and compare the worse possible examples of HDR. Adam's are not like this, but it could be easy to see where the comparison comes in against HDR that don't look HDRish.

tim elder · May 28, 2011

Ansel definitely took heat for the look of his images during his time. Walker Evans specifically criticized his use of filters to create a dramatic effect. Cartier-Bresson famously questioned even his subject matter. Many of Adams' contemporaries said they preferred his earlier prints. I also remember reading in his biography that his assistants felt his use of selenium became heavy-handed in the Seventies.

Tim

markbarendt · May 28, 2011

I tend to agree with Cartier-Breson on Ansel's subject matter question and empathize with Walker Evans. I Am more of a fan of Karsh and Cartier-Breson, Erwitt.

So what.

All of these guys succeeded by being a bit different.

Joe Lipka · May 28, 2011

An analog version of HDR was a standard technique in the early days of photography when the emulsions were extremely blue sensitive. One exposure for the sky and the foreground was blank. A second exposure for the land and the sky went black from overexposure. And if your clouds were well exposed you could use those clouds in other photographs.

MaximusM3 · May 28, 2011

markbarendt said:
I tend to agree with Cartier-Breson on Ansel's subject matter question and empathize with Walker Evans. I Am more of a fan of Karsh and Cartier-Breson, Erwitt.

So what.

All of these guys succeeded by being a bit different.

Bresson's images stand on their own. Adams' do not. Bresson was a great photographer, Adams was a great processor. I like both for different reasons but, again, Adam's work without his sometimes outlandish renditions at printing stage, would certainly not be as exciting, to say the least.

Grif · May 28, 2011

Wow,,,

tim elder said:
Ansel definitely took heat for the look of his images during his time. Walker Evans specifically criticized his use of filters to create a dramatic effect. Cartier-Bresson famously questioned even his subject matter. Tim

Thanks for the reply. I don't remember which of the Yosemite photos finally struck me as a bit HDR'ish, I like the effect if it's not over done, and really like it in black and white for some reason. (not to the cartoon stage however).

I'll never be good enought to do it well in analog, but still appreciate the skills and effort. Not sure why it took me as long as it did to wonder about his peers opinions, I can be a bit obtuse that way.

tkamiya · May 28, 2011

I believe Ansel Adams took a lot of heat for a lot of things he did.... I guess it's a risk one takes to be a pioneer.... Even the fact that photography is an art (which he started and promoted) was criticized. Even his well respected (for most) Zone System has critics to this day.

I generally don't like many HDR images as they are over done. Many people do it for sake of doing it. They take a technique (HDR) and see where they can apply it rather than take a scene and vision and see what technique can best achieve the result.

I really don't see darkroom manipulation as analog to HDR.... I'd rather not go beyond this as it will have to be digital vs analog discussion. I'll just say it's a time honored technique that works well in skilled hands.... I don't particularly like Adam's use of overly dark sky that occupy large area of his images but that's just my personal preference....

Mainecoonmaniac · May 28, 2011

I don't think HDR is necessarily bad. Before the digital photography, photographers tried to recreate what the human eyes see. Film doesn't have the same dynamic range as our eyes. On any photo or movie set you'll see grip equipment with shiney boards to fill in shadows and flags to shade off hot highlights. Adams also tried to control contrast. The Zone system allows previsusalization and control contrast. Digital HDR is convenient way to control contrast. The drawback of course is photographers going to far with it. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but there was HDR done with multiple shots with film and printers were able to combine different parts through pre-press offset lithography process.

bobwysiwyg · May 28, 2011

Good point Maine. Hand colored prints can be very nice if not overdone.

Steff1 · May 28, 2011

Google Talk

This reminds me of a Google Talk available on Youtube, entitled "The Ansel Adams Zone System: HDR Capture and Range Compression by Chemical Processing" wherein John McCann (who used to work for Polaroid) explains the Zone System to Google engineers, presumably, and reflects on how digital technology should better utilize this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xanb3J81EA

I stumpled over this by chance, and must say I'm surprised it hasn't had more views. Plenty to learn from it even if you're not interested in bits and bytes, especially if you're a newcomer to the zone system (like me).

tony lockerbie · May 28, 2011

I will agree that his prints are a revelation when seen up close and personal. As to subject matter, I like a lot of it, some don't like any of it. Photography is a very personal expression, and Ansel took what he liked, so not to everones taste.
I recall a photo of a creek, I think it was Dogwoods in the rain, very HDR if you like, but I was still impressed by the image. The tonal scale and feeling of light was masterful to say the least. The problem with Digital at the moment is the gross overuse of photoshop tecniques like HDR, but especially sharpness/saturation. Like anything new, the image makers need to mature, see how it is in 10 years time.

C A Sugg · May 28, 2011

I suspect that if Adams had lived into the digital era, he would have been a member of JPEG. Remember, he was a consultant to Polariod.

tomalophicon · May 28, 2011

Yeah but Polaroid was good stuff.

Monito · Jun 9, 2011

hoffy said:
But didn't Adams also say that he was excited about the emerging technology of digital in an Interview in the early 80's?

"I eagerly await new concepts and processes. I believe that the
electronic image will be the next major advance. Such systems will
have their own inherent and inescapable structural characteristics,
and the artist and functional practitioner will again strive to
comprehend and control them." -- Ansel Adams, in "The Negative", 1981

He also made similar comments in a BBC interview available on YouTube.

Adams and HDR

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