Acutance and Grit with D76 and D23 on FP4 and Tri-X

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

How can I reach to controlled acutance with D76 and D23 ? And How can I control for higher acutance at for example shadows especially ? I will try to use a Leica Mini Zoom Vario Elmar 35-70 and Olympus XA if I need to change the asa setting , not possible with Leica, I will use Ilford FP4 and Tri X. and I will try to take dark images in shadows. I want to see the gritty noise with high acutance distributed in the deep and highs of bones of human hands for example.

Can you give me asa settings , development times , tempereatures and dilutions ?

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

Hello Michael,

I want grit and acutance together.

pgomena · Jan 26, 2014

I would suggest using Rodinal. Sharp, gritty grain when used with Tri-X in the right way.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

Does reticulation give a acutance effect or the acutance effect is totally different ?

JW PHOTO · Jan 26, 2014

First, I can't speak for your Leica Mini, but I have own several Olympus XA cameras. My wife bought me one when they first came out and I loved the design and ease of pocket carry. As for picture quality? I was never satisfied with any of the samples I had until I had a aperture setting of between f8-f11. My Minox 35EL and Rollei 35 with Tessar were always better. Now, that's just my opinion and I'm sure others will tell you different, but that's exactly why I tried several different XA's. Very nice design, but not great at wider f-stops. The only reason I point this out is that you seem to be wanting something the XA might not be able to deliver. If you are just wanting "snappy" picture of 5x7 size it might be alright, but going beyond that I think would be on the edge. I have had some very nice landscape shots at 11x14 from the XA on a tripod at f11. I said nice, but not what I would call "razor" sharp. For easy carry, sharp-snappy shots I prefer the Minox 35's or my Rollei 35's. Like I said earlier, that's just my opinion. Gritting noise - high acutance (look) would have to be something like Rodinal at 1:25 - 1:50 or D-23 with 65-70 grams of Sodium Sulfite instead of 100 grams. Do some testing and you'll find what you need. Have fun, John

StoneNYC · Jan 26, 2014

HP5+ or Tri-X in Rodinal 1:50 with aggressive agitation should do it...

BradS · Jan 26, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Does reticulation give a acutance effect or the acutance effect is totally different ?

NO! they are completely different.

dpurdy · Jan 26, 2014

If I was going to do what it seems to me you want to do is first I would shoot on 35mm Kodak Tmax 3200 or Ilford Delta 3200 and I would process the film in beutlers or Rodinal 1-100 and I would process it so that it needs a contrast boost in printing. Then I would print it on a high contrast setting with VC paper.

StoneNYC · Jan 26, 2014

dpurdy said:
If I was going to do what it seems to me you want to do is first I would shoot on 35mm Kodak Tmax 3200 or Ilford Delta 3200 and I would process the film in beutlers or Rodinal 1-100 and I would process it so that it needs a contrast boost in printing. Then I would print it on a high contrast setting with VC paper.

They don't make Kodak 3200 anymore... Delta it is! Lol

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

How do you analysis that gallery image ?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I have impressed with that image very much. Owner says it was Olympus XA and set to 400 asa and early dark morning , ordered lab d76 1:1 one stop push development.

I am putting a copy here:

Photographer is Mlehrman.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

There is only color Fuji Film here, Michael. And due to dollar gained %40 in one month , I have to stop ten times to import film. If I become extremelly sure if something works out , I will invest money and 5 weeks waiting.

StoneNYC · Jan 26, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
I wouldn't worry about it too much. People draw way too many conclusions about films and developers based on posted scans of negatives etc. You can't really tell anything that way.

True, that image looks like another I posted with a woman in it, but to avoid issues and out of respect for Mustafa's perspective and beliefs I won't post it here.

But D3200 film will do just fine, or pushing Tri-x to 1600 in Rodinal (which I've done) will work.

Sorry about the cost gain, strange that the dollar to us has fallen to crazy lows... Yet still high compared to many countries.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

Is it possible to gain high acutance with Pyro Developer ?

Is it possible to gain high acutance with Pyro Developer ? I think pyro is the only developer I would use in many styles.

ps.Stone ,I am still taking pictures with my Bolex C8 and its an endless endavour. After some try with norwood director , I found it is strange and I am not so intelligent to solve it. I decided to use my XA as a Lightmeter. Its strange to hold bolex with left hand , looking with right eye and taking with right hand and cable. Dollar was 1:1 and now 1:2.4 in 5 years or longer.

ps2. Michael , I dont have any chance to see these chemicals , processes effects without internet and screen.

JW PHOTO · Jan 26, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I have impressed with that image very much. Owner says it was Olympus XA and set to 400 asa and early dark morning , ordered lab d76 1:1 one stop push development.

I am putting a copy here:

View attachment 80918

Photographer is Mlehrman.

Mustafa,
Now I understand what look you are going after. The XA will be fine for an image like that. I was thinking you were after critically sharp high resolution negatives with a hint of grain. What your after can be made with higher speed films like Foma 400, which has fairly well defined grain, and push processing. Also, a little more vigorous agitation might help make the grain more noticeable also. I mentioned Foma 400 simply because it has grain, but the pattern doesn't seem as random as some films are. Also, I'd still use something like Rodinal or a Metol type developer with very little sodium sulfite and more sodium carbonate.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 26, 2014

Thank you JWPhoto and all.

NB23 · Jan 27, 2014

I would try a very warm developer. 35c and above. D76 1:3 or even Dektol.

StoneNYC · Jan 27, 2014

NB23 said:
I would try a very warm developer. 35c and above. D76 1:3 or even Dektol.

That would be I'll advised, B&W emulsions aren't designed to handle high temps like that, you'll end up stripping off the emulsion entirely...

NB23 · Jan 27, 2014

StoneNYC said:
That would be I'll advised, B&W emulsions aren't designed to handle high temps like that, you'll end up stripping off the emulsion entirely...

Try it instead of spreading false info. It won't strip the emulsion at all.

JW PHOTO · Jan 27, 2014

NB23 said:
Try it instead of spreading false info. It won't strip the emulsion at all.

Yes, I have process the original T-Max 100 at over 100 F and the benefits were excellent grain, faster developing times, better contrast control and no pink color cast to the base. I think I got it from an old "Darkroom Techniques" magazine article, but can't remember for sure. One thing I do know for sure is that the emulsion did not slide off the base and showed no ill effects at all. I believe I was using Kodak HC110 at the time, but it could have been Edwals FG7 too???

NB23 · Jan 27, 2014

Developing in extra warm developer is an old, known trick. I think it might give Umut what he is trying to achieve.

stoneNYC has this habit of trying to sound like an expert but just shows he has no experience.

JW PHOTO · Jan 27, 2014

NB23 said:
Developing in extra warm developer is an old, known trick. I think it might give Umut what he is trying to achieve.

stoneNYC has this habit of trying to sound like an expert but just shows he has no experience.

You might be right on, for BIG, well defined grain with a faster film, but from my experience with T-Max 100 I didn't notice an increase in grain size as the temp increased. But that was T-Max and not something like Tri-X or Foma 400, which I never tried at higher than recommended temps. I can only report what I know and have experienced. JohnW

StoneNYC · Jan 27, 2014

NB23 said:
Developing in extra warm developer is an old, known trick. I think it might give Umut what he is trying to achieve.

stoneNYC has this habit of trying to sound like an expert but just shows he has no experience.

You have a habit of being mean to people in order to sound superior.

Heating B&W emulsion WILL cause it to become highly susceptible to damage, just like older C-22 that wasn't designed for high heat C-41 processing which is something that was said on a thread about not doing C-22 in C-41 without lowering the temp, this I believe was what PE said but that I could be incorrect about but it was someone who was highly knowledgeable.

I have not done this, it's true, have you?

Why can't you be nice about things and say "stone, it probably will soften the emulsion some, but I think you can still do it as long as you're careful with the emulsion" or something nice instead of saying it in a derogatory manner, there's a lot of stuff I have done like successfully shooting and developing film as old as 66 years expired. I'm a little more capable than you give me credit for.

How old are you anyway?

removed account4 · Jan 27, 2014

warm dektol for 1/2 the time agitate normally
warm caffenol c for the second half of the time .. agitate continuously

works like a charm

JW PHOTO · Jan 27, 2014

StoneNYC said:
You have a habit of being mean to people in order to sound superior.

Heating B&W emulsion WILL cause it to become highly susceptible to damage, just like older C-22 that wasn't designed for high heat C-41 processing which is something that was said on a thread about not doing C-22 in C-41 without lowering the temp, this I believe was what PE said but that I could be incorrect about but it was someone who was highly knowledgeable.

I have not done this, it's true, have you?

Why can't you be nice about things and say "stone, it probably will soften the emulsion some, but I think you can still do it as long as you're careful with the emulsion" or something nice instead of saying it in a derogatory manner, there's a lot of stuff I have done like successfully shooting and developing film as old as 66 years expired. I'm a little more capable than you give me credit for.

How old are you anyway?

Hmmm, I think you ought to try some T-Max 100 or even TMY-2 at some higher temps (100 f) and see what we're talking about. I never try to cast wisdom where experience has never been. I might say something like this, "I've heard tell a developer does this..........."' when I have never tried it myself. When I try something I can then speak from experience. Many things I doubt sometimes become truth whether I believe it our not. That's my choice, to believe it or not. JohnW

cliveh · Jan 27, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Hello Michael,

I want grit and acutance together.

Grain (grit) and acutance are a contradiction in terms. What about trying to achieve a fine grain high acutance image and then use a grain screen when you print it.

Acutance and Grit with D76 and D23 on FP4 and Tri-X

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