Acquisition of Film Material Producers InovisCoat and FilmoTec

Lachlan Young · Nov 18, 2020

dutchsteammachine said:
I suspect Henning mentioned a lower lp/m on Foma's film than that companies' data sheet because he tested a good amount of film himself and the results were as such.

He got a lower (more realistic) result because he wasn't testing for resolution at contrast extinction - I recall it was a target that was claimed to deliver a result closer to 'real-world' resolution of materials. Overall, resolution testing has been of questionable use since the 1950's and should only be seen as a very limited component of the 'information capacity' of an emulsion set - which interrelates MTF, RMS Grain, latitude etc in a mathematical relationship to attempt to understand the overall behaviour of an emulsion. Some modern emulsions (especially a number of the ISO 100 BW ones) may actually be operating closer to a noise-limited resolution limit (at a certain point the grain/ noise stops any further resolution of information) as opposed to the older emulsions which may stop resolving useable information long before that point because their MTF response falls off a cliff beyond a certain resolution level.

cmacd123 · Nov 18, 2020

Henning Serger is paid to understand the Photo industry. As such he is undoubtedly privy to lots of "off the record" and "for background only" information. I would credit that he proably understands the Analoge Photo Business at least as well as the managers of the more successful participants. AND I would guess that for time to time he may have to be deliberately vague as he actually knows some juicy tidbit of information, but is not allowed to share it.

Agulliver · Nov 19, 2020

Don't feed the troll.

If Henning hasn't commented here, then he has his reasons.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 19, 2020

Agulliver said:
Don't feed the troll.

If Henning hasn't commented here, then he has his reasons.

Ee, I think you're overreaching a bit. Hennig got enough countermeasures already working for him on this thread, but I can still see where some skepticism comes from given it's from someone who was not aware who Henning is.

flavio81 · Nov 19, 2020

Agulliver said:
Don't feed the troll

Exactly. And preferably, set him on ignore. Just click on his name so the small profile popup window appears, then click on "Ignore".

Agulliver · Nov 20, 2020

flavio81 said:
Exactly. And preferably, set him on ignore. Just click on his name so the small profile popup window appears, then click on "Ignore".

The only reason I saw the posts was because I was accessing Photrio from my work PC during lunch and of course it doesn't auto log in.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 20, 2020

I don't know how making a public announcement about putting someone on ignore list makes this any more civil. Having disagreements is nothing unusual, going at someone for some comments also understandable, but this isn't Waterloo and Napoleon is dead.

I wonder if North Channel Bank will hold a press conference on this very issue as our hopes for more robust film making capacity may be at stake here.

Film-Niko · Nov 20, 2020

Witold said:
Ee, I think you're overreaching a bit. Hennig got enough countermeasures already working for him on this thread, but I can still see where some skepticism comes from given it's from someone who was not aware who Henning is.

If it really would be only a bit of scepticism, then o.k.. But it isn't, it is very unfriendly attacking of a very well respected member who has done a lot over the years for our community here.
A. Serrao is for less than two months here on photrio, and he has been very often unfriendly to others. Not to talk about his lack of knowledge about basics in photography, and simultanously bashing others who have that. He is also well known for this destructive behaviour in other photo groups.

Film-Niko · Nov 20, 2020

flavio81 said:
Exactly. And preferably, set him on ignore. Just click on his name so the small profile popup window appears, then click on "Ignore".

The ignore button is never the right way to handle troll behaviour. Because it means that the reasonable and qualified members surrender and give up.
And the troll content remains. And is then visible to potential new members who might think about joining here, but turn away when they see that posted troll nonsense.
I have regularly tried to motivate others, especially young photographers, to join photrio. But lots of them told me it is unattractive for them because of too much trolling (you remember RattyMouse, trendland, jtk etc.) which destroyed the discussion culture here for a much too long time. They also mentioned too much general negativity, too much grumpy old men who find a hair in any soup, and too much film-is-dead or the-glass-is-half-empty perpetual nagging.

BradS · Nov 20, 2020

Would be nice if the Henning Sarger disciples and detractors could take their worship and bickering elsewhere and let this thread be about an exciting industry development.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 20, 2020

Film-Niko said:
If it really would be only a bit of scepticism, then o.k.. But it isn't, it is very unfriendly attacking of a very well respected member who has done a lot over the years for our community here.
A. Serrao is for less than two months here on photrio, and he has been very often unfriendly to others. Not to talk about his lack of knowledge about basics in photography, and simultanously bashing others who have that. He is also well known for this destructive behaviour in other photo groups.

I'm trying to diffuse rather than move bomb charge to a different location. Was not defending comments beyond simple lack of initiation.

flavio81 · Nov 20, 2020

Film-Niko said:
The ignore button is never the right way to handle troll behaviour. Because it means that the reasonable and qualified members surrender and give up.
And the troll content remains. And is then visible to potential new members who might think about joining here, but turn away when they see that posted troll nonsense.
I have regularly tried to motivate others, especially young photographers, to join photrio. But lots of them told me it is unattractive for them because of too much trolling (you remember RattyMouse, trendland, jtk etc.) which destroyed the discussion culture here for a much too long time. They also mentioned too much general negativity, too much grumpy old men who find a hair in any soup, and too much film-is-dead or the-glass-is-half-empty perpetual nagging.

Yes, you have a point, but arguing with trolls is tiring. What should I do? I genuinely ask for advice.

Film-Niko · Nov 20, 2020

flavio81 said:
Yes, you have a point, but arguing with trolls is tiring. What should I do? I genuinely ask for advice.

Honestly, I don't have a perfect solution. You are absolutely right that arguing with trolls is very tiring. But if you leave the field to them, the forum will be dead. Our forum.
I have seen several originally good photo forums dying because of too much trolling, and a too tolerant policy of the moderators.
I know that lots of friends left apug/photrio because trolls like Ratty Mouse, trendland and Co. was tolerated much too long here. Others left because of the very vocal 'film-is-dead' group here. Film photographers want to enjoy film, and not read permanent that their hobby has no future (especially not as the facts about the film resurgeance are so obvious now).
Probably a reasonable first step could be if the moderation team think about measures to make photrio a more enjoyable experience, especially for young users. Photrio is also a business for Sean, the more satiesfied the users are, the more attractive it is and the more new members will joyn, the better for him.
Just my 2c.

flavio81 · Nov 20, 2020

Witold said:
I don't know how making a public announcement about putting someone on ignore list makes this any more civil. Having disagreements is nothing unusual, going at someone for some comments also understandable, but this isn't Waterloo and Napoleon is dead..

Hi Witold,

I disagree ( )

I didn't know the "ignore" feature existed until somebody suggested placing someone on the ignore list, long ago. So many people probably don't know that feature exists, until somebody calls for ignoring X or Y.

Now, I agree that "having disagreements is nothing unusual", I agree with you and discussions can be kept civil, for example i sometimes have discussions with SIrius Glass and I thoroughly enjoy this guy, seems to be a really nice guy to disagree (and agree) with. a great person and knowledgeable. As are the great majority of people in this forum.

But there are other people in which a civil discussion isn't possible, and here I think there's no better idea than the ignore button. It is a statement as well.

MattKing · Nov 20, 2020

Film-Niko said:
The ignore button is never the right way to handle troll behaviour. Because it means that the reasonable and qualified members surrender and give up.

Trolls tend to fade away if they get little or no response.
That being said, I only use the ignore function when the activity of someone else is seriously impacting my enjoyment of my participation here.

Kodachromeguy · Nov 20, 2020

Film-Niko said:
But lots of them told me it is unattractive for them because of too much trolling (you remember RattyMouse, trendland, jtk etc.)

Is jtk gone? He sure liked to pop up 3 or 4 phrase statements with the intent to irritate. And is Alessandro still here or has be been purged again?

Team ADOX · Nov 21, 2020

Ernst-Jan said:
If convection is so simple, why is it then the bottleneck at Kodak and Fujifilm? I mean both have difficulties with supplying enough C200 cq. Gold 200/Kodacolor 200?

Ernst-Jan, industrial-scale converting / confectioning of film is never "simple", other members here who are claiming that don't have any inside knowledge in film production. These production steps on an industrial level are very challenging and complex, especially for 135 and 120 film, and when you need both high(er) volume and very good quality. Converting of sheet film is easier than 135 and 120 - in relative terms - but also not easy as such if you want excellent quality. We are using a very modern, flexible and sophisticated machine for sheet film confectioning. It was newly build for the ADOX factory in Bad Saarow.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Team ADOX · Nov 21, 2020

MattKing said:
.
Third parties who are trusted by various players in the industry are in a special position - they are in a much better position to understand industry trends than individual players often are.

That is absolutely correct.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Craig75 · Nov 21, 2020

Team ADOX said:
Ernst-Jan, industrial-scale converting / confectioning of film is never "simple", other members here who are claiming that don't have any inside knowledge in film production. These production steps on an industrial level are very challenging and complex, especially for 135 and 120 film, and when you need both high(er) volume and very good quality. Converting of sheet film is easier than 135 and 120 - in relative terms - but also not easy as such if you want excellent quality. We are using a very modern, flexible and sophisticated machine for sheet film confectioning. It was newly build for the ADOX factory in Bad Saarow.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

congrats on yr new machine. I cant imagine that was a simple task having a new machine built

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 21, 2020

flavio81 said:
Hi Witold,

I disagree ( )

I didn't know the "ignore" feature existed until somebody suggested placing someone on the ignore list, long ago. So many people probably don't know that feature exists, until somebody calls for ignoring X or Y.

Now, I agree that "having disagreements is nothing unusual", I agree with you and discussions can be kept civil, for example i sometimes have discussions with SIrius Glass and I thoroughly enjoy this guy, seems to be a really nice guy to disagree (and agree) with. a great person and knowledgeable. As are the great majority of people in this forum.

But there are other people in which a civil discussion isn't possible, and here I think there's no better idea than the ignore button. It is a statement as well.

That's fine. I was only saying that making a public statement about placing someone particular on ignore is not helping keeping things civil. All else I cannot disagree with.

Team ADOX · Nov 21, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
He got a lower (more realistic) result because he wasn't testing for resolution at contrast extinction - I recall it was a target that was claimed to deliver a result closer to 'real-world' resolution of materials.

That is correct.
Resolution is always dependent on object contrast, on the contrast differences of the different details you have in one picture. As an example just have a look at an office desk: Documents with written letters on it, different colors, pencils, USB sticks, computer keyboard with letters on it.....and so on. Lots of little subjects and details, and all have a certain contrast difference to their surrounding. The higher this difference, the higher the possible resolution in a picture.
Most of these details have contrast differences in the range of 1/3 up to 5 stops (under normal lighting conditions), so in the range of 1:1.3 to 1:32. This detail contrast range is by far the most important for photographers (film and digital). Therefore it makes most sense for photographers who want realistic resolution figures which are relevant for their normal photography to make resolution tests with these realistic and relevant object contrast values. And using the equipment you as a photographer are using for your own photography.
And this realistic approach is the one Henning Serger is using. He is running his independent photography test lab on a non-profit base, as a support for the photographer community, so everyone who is interested can have access to the results. Including film, lens and lab equipment manufacturers. We know that several different companies are using his expertise, e.g. to double-check their own tests.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Team ADOX · Nov 21, 2020

Craig75 said:
congrats on yr new machine. I cant imagine that was a simple task having a new machine built

Thank you. Having a complete new machine in the factory is always exciting, and engineers and craftsmen are standing in front of it with a big smile and bright eyes, like little children in a candy store......

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

AgX · Nov 22, 2020

Film-Niko said:
A. Serrao is for less than two months here on photrio, and he has been very often unfriendly to others. Not to talk about his lack of knowledge about basics in photography, and simultanously bashing others who have that. He is also well known for this destructive behaviour in other photo groups.

Alessandro Serrao is at Apug for more than 15 years. He is into reversal processing.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 22, 2020

AgX said:
Alessandro Serrao is at Apug for more than 15 years. He is into reversal processing.

Actually that's correct, thanks AgX for pointing it out.
Film-Niko: sorry to inform you but I'm only on Apug-Photrio and nowhere else.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 22, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
Is jtk gone? He sure liked to pop up 3 or 4 phrase statements with the intent to irritate. And is Alessandro still here or has be been purged again?

Sorry to inform you (and ask Sean if you don't believe me) that when I decided to cancel my Photrio account it was my decision, not a ban from Sean. That's why you'll find my registration of 2020, but actually I was in Apug from 2004.
This is to be precise.

Acquisition of Film Material Producers InovisCoat and FilmoTec

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